Is it possible to brick an upgradable modchip ?

[Syl]

Hi there,
We saw how to brick a Wii with a different firmware, but is it possible to brick an upgradable modchip with the same method ?
I don't really know how an upgradable modchip works, but I think when the DVD player reads some data on the setup disk (for a Wiikey for example), the modchip knows that it should write the following data to the EEPROM.
Nintendo could create some fake modchip firmware and put it into a game, then when the game loads, the modchip try to install the fake firmware and will fail to work after that.
Does the recovery mode help to prevent that kind of trick ?

[_bell_]

Hi there,
We saw how to brick a Wii with a different firmware, but is it possible to brick an upgradable modchip with the same method ?
I don't really know how an upgradable modchip works, but I think when the DVD player reads some data on the setup disk (for a Wiikey for example), the modchip knows that it should write the following data to the EEPROM.
Nintendo could create some fake modchip firmware and put it into a game, then when the game loads, the modchip try to install the fake firmware and will fail to work after that.
Does the recovery mode help to prevent that kind of trick ?

I doubt they will do that, but sure, it is possible. But how easy that is to do depends on what the modchip allows. First of all the big N need to reverse engineer what the real update discs do. Secondly if the modchip is smart enough it will only allow updates for a disc with the correct disc header. That would require that the big N uses a the same discheader as a real upgrade disc for one of their commercial games. I don't think that is very likely.

If the modchip do not check for the correct disc then they won't even need to included it on game. It could be done with a firmware upgrade.

Since I do not have the sourcecode for the commercial modchips, I do not know how paranoid they are but for the open source modchips I know how it works. As for WiiFree 2.45 and OpenWii 2.2B there are no checks for the correct disc. The WiiFree isn't upgradable but you can still disable it by messing with the configuration. The OpenWii on the other hand is, in the latest versions, fully upgradable using DI-command without checking for the correct upgrade disc. So those two are vulnurable. I'm a bit paranoid so in yaosm no configuration changes are allowed unless the a disc with the correct custom discheader is in the drive.

[Syl]

thanks for the info.
I thought about it, so Nintendo may find it too...

[Craigsblackie]

With the wiinja, this would not be possible. The updates are stored in eeprom while the main code is protected.

[_bell_]

With the wiinja, this would not be possible. The updates are stored in eeprom while the main code is protected.

Sure... but without access to the Wiinja deluxe source you can't say for sure. Some parts of it, at least the configuration, must be in the eeprom, and setting a regionpatching modchip to wrong region will stop both originals and backups from being detected.

You can't wipe the whole chip of course.

However, the Wiinja code may or may not be paranoid enough to prevent this, but since it is closed source no one but themselves know for sure.

On the other hand Wiinja V2 can't be wiped or reconfigured as it contains no code that writes to the eprom so if you are really paranoid then it's a safe bet. You could also compile your own version of yaosm, completely disabling the config disc support, and you wouldn't have to worry either. Still the chances that the big N releases a game with a discheader that yaosm will accept configuration changes from are minimal.

[Syl]

The most popular modchips are Cyclowiz and Wiikey.
If these chips aren't actively supported (read : firmware update), nintendo could try to find some holes in the firmware upgrade to brick a maximum of Wii.

[SpanKie]

In the event that this would ever occur, the CycloWiz will be fine, as its requires that switch to update. As for the others, who knows ... anything is possible.

[fldash]

In the event that this would ever occur, the CycloWiz will be fine, as its requires that switch to update. As for the others, who knows ... anything is possible.

That's exactly why I went with the CycloWiz despite having to install the switch. I'd much rather my mod chip be 'write-protected' except when I know I am updating it...

[Cantenna]

Hi there,
We saw how to brick a Wii with a different firmware, but is it possible to brick an upgradable modchip with the same method ?
I don't really know how an upgradable modchip works, but I think when the DVD player reads some data on the setup disk (for a Wiikey for example), the modchip knows that it should write the following data to the EEPROM.
Nintendo could create some fake modchip firmware and put it into a game, then when the game loads, the modchip try to install the fake firmware and will fail to work after that.
Does the recovery mode help to prevent that kind of trick ?

Well id have to say YES.
Everyone who owned a pal wii, with a modchip, enabled the user to run a NTSC update on a Pal system. Guess what... Brick!

[Syl]

Not that kind of brick.
I wrote about modchip firmware brick, not Wii firmware.

[instigator]

Surely it would be illegal for N to do this. It would be comparable to them releasing a virus designed to render computers useless. The only thing they could legally do is update their own firmware to render modchips useless.

Is there any historical data to support console makers doing this in the past?

[SpanKie]

Surely it would be illegal for N to do this. It would be comparable to them releasing a virus designed to render computers useless. The only thing they could legally do is update their own firmware to render mod chips useless.

Is there any historical data to support console makers doing this in the past?

Nope, with the exception of hardware changes to stop chips.

But, like said, anything is possible. If the software industry supports the big N decision to do such a stunt, I don't see where this would illegal; considering in majority of countries, its illegal to modify the console in the first place. Plus, I'm sure if this does happen, the update/software wouldn't render the Wii or its software useless, just the chip, forcing you to remove it.

[numms]

Here's what I believe the pros and cons to all this are...

Open source pic chips should be just fine as reflashing them should take them back to the original state.

WiiKey has the bad flash recovery, however, no guide on how to do this has ever been released by them. Same goes for the clones.

Cyclowiz requires the switch, I don't know that this can be updated automatically without user assistance.

Many chips that are not upgradable should not have this as an issue at all. The only way to block these chips would be to write firmware upgrades for the system, not the chip.

Wiinja Deluxe not really sure, but I don't know of a way this would be recoverable (unless this is just another PIC chip that could be reflashed).

[duros]

Not that kind of brick.
I wrote about modchip firmware brick, not Wii firmware.

A brick is a brick is a brick.

[_bell_]

A brick is a brick is a brick.

But a modchip brick is a recoverable brick since you can remove the modchip, a firmware brick on the other hand is a $250-brick.

[Cantenna]

Not that kind of brick.
I wrote about modchip firmware brick, not Wii firmware.


A Brick is a Brick!
and this topic is completly irrelevent to any importance based upon that all modchip's currently released for wii are titlesssly useless if your wii system memory becomes bricked.

Fact is all modchip released right now for wii, arent really mod chips, in that all they do is talk to your cd-rom drive. THATS IT!

Xecuter 3 for xbox on the other hand, That is a modchip. It talks to all the hardware, and is simply unbrickable. Hell, I could format the xbox dirve, and wipe the modchip clean of its firmware, completly wipe out all code on it and if i put the right dvd disc in the drive, it will be up & running again in no time.

Thing is the way in which a modchip works for the wii or 360 (i still believe),
It is scientifically impossiable to brick a modchip given how it interface's with the system due to its "limited intervention."
It just cannot be done, Period,

However,
In the same light "of its limited intervention" with the system, it can also be used not only to the advantage of software pirates, but also developers such as ninteno.

Very clever Nintendo, I am very impressed with the idea of the region specific updates..