CycloWiz not updateable via DVD ?

[giebdupe]

Well, it seems that the Chip used on the CycloWiz is a SX28. Most people who are into this stuff have high doubts that this Chip can be updated with a DVD. It could be updated via a SX programmer, but using a DVD is nearly impossible.
What do you think ? Anyone has any experience with the SX28 chip ?

[ammmmn]

well I hope not for maxconsole and cyclowiz

[fluidmax]

i guess you can put it this way....i believe the original Magic 3 was made on aa sx-28..can we reprogram the magic with a dvd on our ps2 with out a sx programmer?
i don't think so....you might be able to flash it but the end product might not have the same exact code inside after you flashed it

[peppers]

ill just go ahead and post a link to the thread you are talking about and include some info and let you judge for yourself, I dont know or realy care myself
http://www.ps2-scene.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52377
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2077/cycloss1oi7.jpg
^rotated and trimed "Media Shot" of the cyclowiz

below: datasheet

[garyopa]

I can 100% tell you for sure if the Cyclowiz uses any Scenix parts SX28 or others like what was posted in their picture.

There is NO WAY IN MILLION years you could upgrade by disc.

For one thing you need a higher voltage supplied over the OSC pins along with the data which is very tight timing.

I have built my own Scenix programmers and the timing is very hard and wiring and special parts are needed.

There is no way you could have the chip running and reprogram itself by DVD.

You need a chip like the design of the Matrix Clones on the PS2.

The Magic v3.1 and ICE designs like the H20 use the SX28 and there was alot of good designers of code on those teams and noone has ever tried or claimed you could update those chips by a disc.

Everyone in the PS2 world knows Magic /ICE /H20 /Duo2 chips all which are based on the Scenix parts can only be re-written by a hardware device, and that would be alot of wasted parts to add to each board.

If you want a REAL UPGRADABLE chip you need to look for a PCBoard design and format like the Matrix chips on the PS2.

I would not even think the Wiikey would be upgradable in its current layout, the chip is too small to hold a internal self-flashable eeprom.

Remember for a chip to be upgradable the code has to be written in the chip for it to read the data from a disc and then re-programm and verify the new binary on some type of flash chip, and offer fail-safes incase something happens during the whole process.

The above process CAN NOT in anyway shape or form work on a SX28 chip without external programming hardware.

I been working and modding and designing firmware and code for chips and hardware for 20 years now, even some very high-end PCBoard layouts and ASIC design under contact for companies and my own companies and there
is no way based on the current pictures of the Cyclowiz that it is upgradable.

I truly fell sorry for all those that pre-ordered and paid for this chip, and when I have more time I will see if I can get my own Wii and get to work on something great for all those Wii owners running around in circles between
the different overpriced overhyped wrongly-designed mods.

-=(Gary owner of Oasis Pensive Abacutors Limited)=-

[Bazildon]

Well thats sold me......think i'll wait and see what other mods come out for my Wii.

garyopa seems to know his sh** and so i think i'll take a backseat for a couple of months and watch the mods come and go and the squables like "mine is better than yours...."etc.

Should be fun! :)


edit :- ahhhhh...no swearing!

[Quantumsource]

It seems like this sx28 chip is indeed not able to be reprogramed by the dvd drive unless there is a built in reprogrammer on it (which it seems quite clear that there isn't) The question becomes does anyone know for sure if the chip is an sx28 or are people just speculating.

Is Cyclowiz just trying to compare with wiikey's supposed upgradeability, or can it realy do it? I have no clue, if I knew what chip it was I could check to see if the pin out specs for it match up to where the traces for the programing mode switch go.

[peppers]

The question becomes does anyone know for sure if the chip is an sx28 or are people just speculating..

if you take the picture from the front page of maxconsole you can see that it is a sx28 the datasheet is alredy in this thread so there is no need to even look for it the pins nessasery for programing the chip are connected to something but the question becomes can the wii drive get the job done in some way we would not think of?

http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/cycloss.jpg

[giebdupe]

@garyopa: Thanx for the input. It´s good to see that there´s someone around who actually knows what he´s talking about.

[Quantumsource]

very interesting. I hadn't seen that pic close up before. Thanks, now I know I will wait a bit before I go spending the $$$ on a chip. from the somewhat speculative pics of the wiikey, can anyone identify if the claims of upgradability are any more likily.

[poulpy]

Dear everyone,

i don't usualy post on this forum but it caught my attention on this matter.

First thank you Garyopa for all your great work and analysis so far all around the scene, your concern in the Wii brings me great hope.

As for the Cyclowiz i received a first batch yesterday and i can confirm that it's the exact same chip that MC showed in the picture. I'm quite concern about your analysis about this chip.

The chips are working fine but there's no way to test the upgrade feature yet. All we have is the installation PDF which explains to solder 3 more points and a switch to use the upgrade feature.

Here's the quote of the installation PDF which you can find everywhere now :
" Connect the S point from the drive board to the CycloWiz. You must also
connect the X point to an on/off switch (not included) and the other end
of this switch to the T point on CycloWiz. The switch will be used to
enable programming mode. Make sure it always stays OFF under
normal circumstances."

We're in contact with the cyclo Team but also the Xeno team (WiiKey) as we're handling their futur support site and i got confirmed some knock off chips are around so be carefull when ordering also the Wiikey team is trying to get more features before releasing.

Anyway i don't imagine i helped any of you ^__^' but at least i can 100% confirm the picture are authentic and the chip is indeed the SX28, maybe the other solder points would give you some clue as i seriously doubt they would tell us to solder this if it was a simple marketing spin.

[garyopa]

Here's the quote of the installation PDF which you can find everywhere now :

" Connect the S point from the drive board to the CycloWiz. You must also
connect the X point to an on/off switch (not included) and the other end
of this switch to the T point on CycloWiz. The switch will be used to
enable programming mode. Make sure it always stays OFF under
normal circumstances."


I would like to know where does these three wires connect to on the
SX28 chip or Pcboard.

I need to get hold of one of these Cyclowiz and look at it myself,
but no matter what it is very strange code could be written to
re-program the chip and also produce the higher-voltage needed
without any extra parts.

[poulpy]

Here's the link to the PDF : http://www.teamcyclops.com/install.pdf

I hope it will solve some clues. If you need i CycloWiz i'll be happy to provide you with one, just order one from my website (banner below) and confirm your email through PM, i'll know it's you and i'll send it for free ^__^' it's the least i can do for someone like you and i've a feeling it will be the best investement i ever made :D

[garyopa]

Here's the link to the PDF : http://www.teamcyclops.com/install.pdf

I hope it will solve some clues. If you need i CycloWiz i'll be happy to provide you with one.


I have been looking at the install diagram for the CycloWiz, and checking my notes from programming the SX28 on Magic boards, and you could update the system but it would be risky and need very well written code running in the controller which would output the binary to the chip via the S point.

But the connection going from the switch to X and T points would need to enable the 12.5volt power going to the other side of the OSC points on the SX28 and this would need to be done under USER-CONTROL with caution and screens to inform the user when to pull the switch and when to turn off the switch.

This is normally done by control of the external programmer circuit which is done with a couple of parts to toggle the 12.5volts on the other line at the right timing to enter the programming mode and to exit the programming mode.

I doubt they have written or tested any upgrading software and releasing something like this since the 12.5volts is under USER-CONTROL would need to be done with caution and many warnings and lots of beta-testing.

[Pacotera]

Posting just to say that is nice to see garyopa around the wii section :D

Have great respect for the X360 fw hack releases :D Unlock all my Hitachis (with exception of 0078fk) with your pack :)

Keep up the awesome job

[]'s

[ej76623]

I have been looking at the install diagram for the CycloWiz, and checking my notes from programming the SX28 on Magic boards, and you could update the system but it would be risky and need very well written code running in the controller which would output the binary to the chip via the S point.

But the connection going from the switch to X and T points would need to enable the 12.5volt power going to the other side of the OSC points on the SX28 and this would need to be done under USER-CONTROL with caution and screens to inform the user when to pull the switch and when to turn off the switch.

This is normally done by control of the external programmer circuit which is done with a couple of parts to toggle the 12.5volts on the other line at the right timing to enter the programming mode and to exit the programming mode.

I doubt they have written or tested any upgrading software and releasing something like this since the 12.5volts is under USER-CONTROL would need to be done with caution and many warnings and lots of beta-testing.

so does this mean that it is flashable via DVD disc as long as they've written a well written code...

maybe it works like those cd lens cleaner... while you listen to the music on the disc... it's cleaning the lens...

...just my imagination
(Fictional Theory) maybe it uses the nintendo firmware flasher but instead it flashes the cyclowiz using data from the DVD...

-----------

Well my only question about cyclowiz upgrade feature is:

-Does it upgrade future features...
or more likely
-Does it only upgrade the chip so it would still be operational even if nintendo try to bash it with a new firmware...

[cravavr3]

The switch may indeed connect to 12.5V but i see a big concern on use of the switch and people wiring incorrectly( opposite sides and thinking off when on ) and playing with switch even/before/if a update DVD is released.

You can always bypass electronics cheaply but with ability to cause more damage then good. But at what expense will the switch and improper programming method be..toasted modchip...toasted drive controller..toasted wii.

Or possible upgrade by dvd = GCOS on DVD and switch is useless :p

[avalon]

It's quite funny....

There is NO WAY IN MILLION years you could upgrade by disc.and you insist that you are sure about it. Then later on...
I have been looking at the install diagram for the CycloWiz, and checking my notes from programming the SX28 on Magic boards, and you could update the system [...]
Relax a bit guys :) [Edit] This rumor was launched by a site whose only sponsor looks like the main distributor of Wiikey, and they go as far as saying "the SX28 chip used by the CycloWiz is not re-flashable!" on their frontpage, even if it's written twice "In-System programming Capability" on the first page of the SX28 datasheet :D ... It rings a bell for me...

[Yokotuna]

This rumor was launched by a site whose only sponsor looks like the main distributor of Wiikey, and they go as far as saying "the SX28 chip used by the CycloWiz is not re-flashable!" on their frontpage, even if it's written twice "In-System programming Capability" on the first page of the SX28 datasheet :D ... It rings a bell for me...

I'll ring a bell for you. "In-System Programming" (ISP) doesn't mean the chip is re-flashable. It just means it can be re-written by special programming hardware.

[avalon]

I'll ring a bell for you. "In-System Programming" (ISP) doesn't mean the chip is re-flashable. It just means it can be re-written by special programming hardware.No, it means it can be re-programmed without having to desolder the chip but it doesn't mean that special programming hardware is needed, read the posts above... And for me re-programmable, re-flashable and re-writable are synonyms.

[garyopa]

It's quite funny....

and you insist that you are sure about it. Then later on...

Relax a bit guys :) [Edit] This rumor was launched by a site whose only sponsor looks like the main distributor of Wiikey, and they go as far as saying "the SX28 chip used by the CycloWiz is not re-flashable!" on their frontpage, even if it's written twice "In-System programming Capability" on the first page of the SX28 datasheet :D ... It rings a bell for me...

To correctly program the SX28 with no errors and burned chips, you do need extra hardware to time and control the programming voltage which is 12.5volts on one of the OSC pins of the SX28, this is where the SWITCH you solder on the Cyclowiz comes into play, it turns on and off the HIGH-VOLTAGE.

The second connection the S wire connects to a controllable IO port on the DVD controller and then connects on the Cyclowiz to the other side of the OSC pins of the SX28.

To program the SX28 you would need to send a timed signal with the binary data on the S point and then the 12.5volt needs to be turned on and off at the right times to enter into programming mode and to exit the mode.

This is where the external programmer normally comes into play, and you can build one for about $10 in parts, and the main part is a way to turn on and off the 12.5volts for programming, and these parts are NOT ON THE CYCLOWIZ.

So this is where the problem comes into play in upgrading the Cyclowiz:

#1: No parts on the PCBoard to control the high-voltage programming,
This is control by the USER using the ON and OFF switch.

#2: The SX28 does not re-program itself, this is done by external control.

#3: This being the case, your Cyclowiz needs to be working and COMPATIBLE
with your WII to be able to load a program like GCOS with a homebrew
program in GC mode to upload code into the RAM which outputs the
new SX28 binary via the IO port which is connected by the S point.

#4: This program would need to have screens to inform the user when
to turn on and off the HIGH-VOLTAGE switch to start and end the
programming cycles.

#5: The program better also have ways to read back and compare the
new SX28 binary to make sure it is flashed and working correctly,
otherwise if the user shuts down the WII, and the SX28 was not
programmed correctly, there would be no way to reupload the
new SX28 binary without an external programmer or the user
having another way to load a GC homebrew via SDLOAD and
Action Reply, etc.

#6: If they ever did make a upgrade disc, it would open the floodgates
of cheap china-make clones as there is noway to protect the data
flow of the new SX28 binary going into your own blank clone chip.

[avalon]

#6: If they ever did make a upgrade disc, it would open the floodgates
of cheap china-make clones as there is noway to protect the data
flow of the new SX28 binary going into your own blank clone chipI don't think the "patching" dataflow of Wiinja, CycloWiz or any other chip can be protected anyway, and it's much more easy to dump, so we'll see cheap china-made clones very soon anyway :) Look at Erant DVD tool for more info about the DVD debug port: one clock, one data in, one data out :)

[Yokotuna]

No, it means it can be re-programmed without having to desolder the chip but it doesn't mean that special programming hardware is needed, read the posts above... And for me re-programmable, re-flashable and re-writable are synonyms.

No, that is not what ISP means. Actel FPGA's are ISP too but you cannot program them without a highly special programmer.