Gears of War - We pushed the 360 to the limits!

[Zeus]

Epics Gears of War pushes the 360 to its limits according to the QA manager Preston Thorne who spoke to media at the Hollywood launch party. This was in response to the question of whether the game could ever work on the PS3. He also stated that the game could never be achieved on a 360 that had 256 mb of ram and it was difficult enough fitting the game on 512mb.

Another Epic spokesman also went onto to say that there were more PS3 developersthan 360 developers and that "the PS3 is in our future. We always had plans for the Playstation 3 and an engine already runs on it.”

<center><img src="http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/gofw.jpg"></center></a>


Since Epic is working with the PS3 hardware and the Xbox 360 hardware could Gears of War ever work on the Playstation 3? “256 MB of RAM makes a huge difference. There is no way we could ever do Gears of War on 256, we had trouble fitting everything on 512MB. We pushed the 360 to the limits.” Another member from Epic’s team chimed in with the fact that there are currently more Playstation 3 programmers than Xbox 360 programmers. “It (the PS3) is in our future. We always had plans for the Playstation 3 and an engine already runs on it.”


News Source: <A href="http://www.siliconera.com/index.php/2006/10/26/from-the-gears-of-war-hollywood-launch-party/" target="_blank">Siliconera</a>

[vancitypimp]

Saying GoW can never be done on PS3 is like saying MGS4 can never be done on 360.

[lokii]

well i just cant wait for this new era in consoles to kick off properly , all in all its all good for us the consumer, ill get a ps3 when it becomes a good deal to me, its current price is forcing me to rethink about a launch machine but i will no doubt pick one up at a later date with a cheaper price tag.
This gen really excites me because its truly a battle of the giants with 360, ps3 and nintendo all showing great promise.
Next year is gonna be REAL intresting, cant wait ;) ;)

[Timboman2000]

You know, if this game really has pushed the 360's graphical limits to the max, this early in the consoles life, then it's going to be blown away pretty fast in the first month after the PS3's release.

I mean, it's never good to reach the pinical of what something can do, so early on...
It just makes all your flaws more apparent, and much more exploitable...

-Timboman2000

[crono]

Little bit offtopic,but i did see someome whit this game on live playing uno,whole box whit dvd in it(showing whit his cam),anyone else already did see this????

Asd for this topic self,i think this game is putting the 360 to its limits now but in some time they will find other tricks in programing to mabey get just more out from the xbox360!!!Like Donkey kong on snes!

[The Bat]

Seeing any developer claim to have pushed a console to its limits always makes me smile. No matter how impressive that Gears of War will seem today, I can assure you that it'll look just as average in a few years time as any other first year game after a few years.

[psychospeedster]

Why did he avoid that question in such a round about way? All he said was that it couldnt be ran with only 256mb of ram, the PS3 has 512mb total, so does that mean it can run it? Yeah i know it has two types one for the cell and the other for the rsx and it can be shared... maybe someone can answer this better.

[halomasta203]

You know, if this game really has pushed the 360's graphical limits to the max, this early in the consoles life, then it's going to be blown away pretty fast in the first month after the PS3's release.

I mean, it's never good to reach the pinical of what something can do, so early on...
It just makes all your flaws more apparent, and much more exploitable...

-Timboman2000

Thats true, I've never thought about it that way.:(

[pCeSlAyEr]

yea yea... anyone who beleves they pushed the 360 it its actual limit is foolish..

when they say this, they mean with currently known methods/devtools... as with the Xbox1 over time they will recieve more tools and things that will take them alot closer to the actual hardware... altho current devtools are easy to use, they don't allow dev to program hardware specific calls/functions that easily....

[SSChevy2001]

Why did he avoid that question in such a round about way? All he said was that it couldnt be ran with only 256mb of ram, the PS3 has 512mb total, so does that mean it can run it? Yeah i know it has two types one for the cell and the other for the rsx and it can be shared... maybe someone can answer this better.

A lot of developers have compained that the ps3 has less texture memory than xbox360, so I guess it's not possible for the ps3 to share from both 256mb pools.

Xbox360 vs PS3 = Xbox360 Winner ( more texture memory )

[pCeSlAyEr]

actually the PS3's OS takes up a hell of alot of memory.. so devs really only have something like 450mb to work with..

as far asI know the RSX has access to both memory pools, but the cell only has access to one..

*EDIT*
- 64mb of the 256mb of available XDR memory off the Cell CPU
- 32mb of the 256mb of available GDDR3 memory off the RSX chip
- 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved
- 1 SPE of 7 able to be "taken" by the OS at a moments notice

so only 416mb ram avail to games at any time:eek:
and only 5 cores avail at all times...

Sony has removed up to 25% of the available CPU power and 18.75% of RAM for these features.

oh and im not pulling these numbers out of my ass...

Link Here (http://www.ps3portal.com/?view=article&article=352&p=2)

[Ahmed_p800]

So...........the PS3 cant handel Gears of war.........hmmmmmm

[Feark]

It was same with Gran Turismo to PSX, they also said under the development the game had pushed the limit what the PSX could do.. But we all know that Gran Turismo 2 had - was bigger and had better graphic than the first one.

[put4558350]

as a matter of fact. cell can access too booth memory pools. But one is kind of tooooo slooooow. and seem like it's can't used.

Other fact. ps3's os using only cell's memory.

so ( (512 / 2) - about 70 ) = about 186 mb left as main memory for ps3

[pCeSlAyEr]

So...........the PS3 cant handel Gears of war.........hmmmmmm

as of the current state of the coding no way in hell.. the 360 uses things the PS3 cannot or should I say doesn't have...

im sure it could if the code was totally redone..;)

[pCeSlAyEr]

as a matter of fact. cell can access too booth memory pools. But one is kind of tooooo slooooow. and seem like it's can't used.

Other fact. ps3's os using only cell's memory.

so ( (512 / 2) - about 70 ) = about 186 mb left as main memory for ps3

your wrong about that fact buddy... the DASH uses both memory pools..

[kronikdaddy]

I don't see how the dash uses more then a few KB. It's just like the PSP's dash, just a few icon's in row's.

[tpepsiman]

this game is going to be so fxxxing cool

preview : http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/objects/747/747891.html

there ar some cool vid and pics on this sight :)

[pCeSlAyEr]

I don't see how the dash uses more then a few KB. It's just like the PSP's dash, just a few icon's in row's.
no its a blade that comes up and loads the whole dashboard and renders it in HD max 1080p... Hi res pics and all... and you can swap it on and off in real time... so its huge...

in single player calling the dash should have no side effects, but since no pausing in multiplayer.. well thats gunna suck..

the 360's dash takes about 30MB... but its not loaded while playing games.. the 360 only calls on the blade when running a game wich is only a few megs if that...

[Raist3d]

A lot of developers have compained that the ps3 has less texture memory than ps3, so I guess it's not possible for the ps3 to share from both 256mb pools.

Xbox360 vs PS3 = Xbox360 Winner ( more texture memory )

Eh, you have shift memory around very fast, and the PS3 has a faster processor. It's not that clear cut.

- Raist

UPDATE: RSX can access all ram anyway. But what people need to see is the prices paid on both sides. For example, on the 360, you can have the CPU stall while the GPU is doing a lot of memory intensive operations, while on the PS3 they can both access memory from their respective pools in parallel for more speed.

[Raist3d]

actually the PS3's OS takes up a hell of alot of memory.. so devs really only have something like 450mb to work with..

as far asI know the RSX has access to both memory pools, but the cell only has access to one..

*EDIT*
- 64mb of the 256mb of available XDR memory off the Cell CPU
- 32mb of the 256mb of available GDDR3 memory off the RSX chip
- 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved
- 1 SPE of 7 able to be "taken" by the OS at a moments notice

so only 416mb ram avail to games at any time:eek:
and only 5 cores avail at all times...

Sony has removed up to 25% of the available CPU power and 18.75% of RAM for these features.

oh and im not pulling these numbers out of my ass...

Link Here (http://www.ps3portal.com/?view=article&article=352&p=2)

The part you are missing here is that Cell is still SO FAST that even doing this you end up with still a faster core. And also some of the functionality "taken away" is stuff your game would have to do anyway in some cases, so it' snot like you are "totally losing" power like that.

- Raist

[pCeSlAyEr]

The part you are missing here is that Cell is still SO FAST that even doing this you end up with still a faster core. And also some of the functionality "taken away" is stuff your game would have to do anyway in some cases, so it' snot like you are "totally losing" power like that.

- Raist

Tell that to the Devs that are complaining not me... all things point to the Cell being not as fast as you may seem to think..

anyways... any one got the new OXM? there is a Xbox Live PRIMETIME Advert in the mag with the DEC Calender of event on the back... well in the bottom right corner it says..

Game Demos
Download demos for top Xbox 360 games such as:
NBA 2K7
GEARS OF WAR
LORD OF THE RINGS BATTLE FOR MIDDLE EARTH
HITMAN BLOOD MONEY
MADDEN NFL 07
NINETY-NINE NIGHTS

me thinks the demo will be released this Halloween!! same as the dash update..

[krawhitham]

You know, if this game really has pushed the 360's graphical limits to the max, this early in the consoles life, then it's going to be blown away pretty fast in the first month after the PS3's release.

I mean, it's never good to reach the pinical of what something can do, so early on...
It just makes all your flaws more apparent, and much more exploitable...

-Timboman2000

It is pushed to the limit due to the memory being 512 MB, how much memory does the PS2 come with?

[pCeSlAyEr]

It is pushed to the limit due to the memory being 512 MB, how much memory does the PS2 come with?
whats the ps2 have to do with anything?

[maxRus]

it doesnt matter what they say its all marketing. Yeah like they are going to say" the PS3 will own playing Gears of war". The 360 game comes out in a couple of weeks. they want you to buy the 360 version now! if Microsoft was smart, they better Buy Out EPIC games and make it a 1st party developer. the game does look badass.

[Havok154]

Raist, I thought the problem wasn't the Cell processor it's self but the fact the PS3 had less memory to use for the Cell and the fact the ram is actually slower then the 360's, making it harder to stream the data to the processor. What is seems like to me is that the PS3 is a powerhouse processor, but they are going to have major problems getting the data to that processor, making it very hard if not impossible to use the Cell anywhere near it's capabilities. A Ram bottleneck is usually really bad, especially when your processor is capable of so much more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what a lot of devs were complaining about.

[tpepsiman]

whats the ps2 have to do with anything?

lol i think he meant ps3

[gonepostl]

Just my oppinion. But with the gamestop overnight preview or whatever it was. I honest to god couldn't even watch the entire gameplay trailer. It was that fuckin boring. AND I HAD REALLY HIGH HOPES FOR THIS GAME!

[The Bat]

Raist, I thought the problem wasn't the Cell processor it's self but the fact the PS3 had less memory to use for the Cell and the fact the ram is actually slower then the 360's, making it harder to stream the data to the processor. What is seems like to me is that the PS3 is a powerhouse processor, but they are going to have major problems getting the data to that processor, making it very hard if not impossible to use the Cell anywhere near it's capabilities. A Ram bottleneck is usually really bad, especially when your processor is capable of so much more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what a lot of devs were complaining about.

The memory being slower is only part of it. There's also the 10MB of cache directly in the graphics processor, and the fact that the graphics processor could be used to assist more with some of the physics calculations as needed. While the 360 has a few areas of its own where the PS3 outdoes it, this title was made around the strengths of the 360. Just including anti-aliasing into the PS3 version would require more of a performance hit than it would on the 360, where the GPU looks after it on its own.

Saying that the PS3 can't handle Gears of War would be misleading, just as saying that the 360 couldn't handle MGS4 would be. If Gears wasn't an exclusive, it would likely be possible to program around the PS3s bottlenecks, and with the end results being less than perfect. But the programmers might be able to go beyond 100% in a few other areas as well. It would be more of a complete rewrite than porting games between these two consoles (like a third party sports title) would require though.

[DEDDOA]

I don't think they meant that it was pushed to it's potential limits, just pushed to the limits of what they were currently able to do with it, especially in the texturing dept. So it's hardly peaked, just reached the limit of what what the epic developers can currently do with it, given time and more experience they and others will get far more out of it just like any other console. Look at the PS2, it's still capable of pulling off suprises that you would think it's not capable of, due in no small part to the developers experience with it and what work arounds they can use to get around it's weak points.

As for gears of war on the PS3, I can't see why not. Ok it may have less GFX ram, but then there are no doubt ways around that. At worst a slight drop in texture quality would no doubt would do it and would go unnoticed by the majority who will not have HD-TV, or have not seen the 360 version.

[pCeSlAyEr]

I don't think they meant that it was pushed to it's potential limits, just pushed to the limits of what they were currently able to do with it, especially in the texturing dept. So it's hardly peaked, just reached the limit of what what the epic developers can currently do with it, given time and more experience they and others will get far more out of it just like any other console. Look at the PS2, it's still capable of pulling off suprises that you would think it's not capable of, due in no small part to the developers experience with it and what work arounds they can use to get around it's weak points.

As for gears of war on the PS3, I can't see why not. Ok it may have less GFX ram, but then there are no doubt ways around that. At worst a slight drop in texture quality would no doubt would do it and would go unnoticed by the majority who will not have HD-TV, or have not seen the 360 version.
so basicly it cannot be done at its current level or quality...

[Raist3d]

Tell that to the Devs that are complaining not me... all things point to the Cell being not as fast as you may seem to think..


Which developers? Links please?

As for the Cell, it still has more cores than the 360, and some heavy duty floating point capabilities. There's pros and cons.


anyways... any one got the new OXM? there is a Xbox Live PRIMETIME Advert in the mag with the DEC Calender of event on the back... well in the bottom right corner it says..

Game Demos
Download demos for top Xbox 360 games such as:
NBA 2K7
GEARS OF WAR
LORD OF THE RINGS BATTLE FOR MIDDLE EARTH
HITMAN BLOOD MONEY
MADDEN NFL 07
NINETY-NINE NIGHTS

me thinks the demo will be released this Halloween!! same as the dash update..

[Raist3d]

so basicly it cannot be done at its current level or quality...

No, you don't know that. Both consoles are pretty powerfull with one having an edge here and the other having one there. The cell can crunch more for example. It depends what is going on and how they would adapt it.

Same conversely- as it is, Resistance can't be done on 360. Start with 16 gigs of ram, etc.

- Raist

[DEDDOA]

No, you don't know that. Both consoles are pretty powerfull with one having an edge here and the other having one there. The cell can crunch more for example. It depends what is going on and how they would adapt it.

Same conversely- as it is, Resistance can't be done on 360. Start with 16 gigs of ram, etc.

- Raist

No thats a bit different, thats software storage limits, if it had to take up 16GB for reasons other than poor storage (Padding, low compression and high file duplication to improve disk access), then it would just require 2 discs instead, which i no big deal. Hardware limits are a far bit more restrictive, if you need more storage you use another disk, if you need more GFX ram then you have to compromise or recode. Like I said tho, thats not to say the PS3 couldn't do it, it would just need to be tackled diferently or at worse take a slight visual drop, such as being designed for a slightly lower res. This would go unoticed by 90+% of gamers (in the UK at least), due to the slow uptake of HD-TV due to high prices. In turn tho it would mean higher frame rates. Personally I have no doubt at all that the PS3 and 360 can quite easily run all the exact same games due to near identical performance. If I remember correctly a while back at the 360's release or just before a comparrison was made, it was PS3 1-3% faster with un-textured models and 360 about 1-3% faster with textured ones, no doubt due to the extra GFX ram, or somthing like that. Essentially at the mo, it's just down to programmer competance, 360 programmers have a bit of a headstart but that will even out no doubt.

[The Bat]

No thats a bit different, thats software storage limits, if it had to take up 16GB for reasons other than poor storage (Padding, low compression and high file duplication to improve disk access), then it would just require 2 discs instead, which i no big deal. Hardware limits are a far bit more restrictive, if you need more storage you use another disk, if you need more GFX ram then you have to compromise or recode. Like I said tho, thats not to say the PS3 couldn't do it, it would just need to be tackled diferently or at worse take a slight visual drop, such as being designed for a slightly lower res. This would go unoticed by 90+% of gamers (in the UK at least), due to the slow uptake of HD-TV due to high prices. In turn tho it would mean higher frame rates. Personally I have no doubt at all that the PS3 and 360 can quite easily run all the exact same games due to near identical performance. If I remember correctly a while back at the 360's release or just before a comparrison was made, it was PS3 1-3% faster with un-textured models and 360 about 1-3% faster with textured ones, no doubt due to the extra GFX ram, or somthing like that. Essentially at the mo, it's just down to programmer competance, 360 programmers have a bit of a headstart but that will even out no doubt.

Exactly, that's why I keep saying that the games for the two systems will likely be quite close overall, with the relatively few true exclusives being the main factor over which system is "better" for people. In comparison with each other, each of the two systems will have a few bottlenecks and a few advantages to make up for them. And whenever someone from the business says that their console or game will be so hoghly advanced as to form a whole new standard, that's a good time to just wait and see how the final product measures up with reviewers.

Besides, a lot of these questions will be answered in another 3 weeks anyways.