Xbox designer accuses MS of homophobia

[Zeus]

According to a UK paper, an Xbox graphic designer who allegedly suffered abuse over his sexuality at work has claimed that MS has a culture of homophobia promoted in the work place.


Xbox designer accuses Microsoft of homophobia

An Xbox graphic designer who allegedly suffered abuse over his sexuality at work claimed Microsoft has a culture of homophobia, according to papers submitted to a tribunal.


News Source: <A href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/microsoft/5042225/Xbox-designer-accuses-Microsoft-of-homophobia.html" target="_blank">Telegraph</a>

[billysastard]

makes sense, they do after all have a track record of homophobia on live, ban people with possibly gay sounding names but leave all the homphobic gangsta wannabees to conting to ruin live foradults and young children, maybe if ms took a stand and banned them instead live would be a better place and the teenage fps players would learn that homophobia is every bit as bad a racism at least if they wanted to play online again ;)

[mactaetus]

makes sense, they do after all have a track record of homophobia on live, ban people with possibly gay sounding names but leave all the homphobic gangsta wannabees to conting to ruin live foradults and young children, maybe if ms took a stand and banned them instead live would be a better place and the teenage fps players would learn that homophobia is every bit as bad a racism at least if they wanted to play online again ;)

So true. Thanks for this gr8 comment!

[sirxlaughs]

makes sense, they do after all have a track record of homophobia on live, ban people with possibly gay sounding names but leave all the homphobic gangsta wannabees to conting to ruin live foradults and young children, maybe if ms took a stand and banned them instead live would be a better place and the teenage fps players would learn that homophobia is every bit as bad a racism at least if they wanted to play online again ;)

How does it make sense when one is breaking rules by putting txt in their profile, and the other is talking on a mic (not breaking the rules)? And those people don't get "banned," they get suspended until they make the necessary changes to their profile.

[DEDDOA]

no offence intended, but to quote a friend of mine who is gay "being gay is the new black, some people think they need special attention for their sexuality that is above that of straight people". I take a lot of these claims from anywhere with a pinch of salt until the full details are given.

If he was persecuted only for his sexuality, then fair enough they deserve to get into trouble, tho if it's the more often case that he didn't get what he wants and uses the old "you are only doing that because i'm gay" he doesn't deserve a thing. My view is are you gay or a person, I couln't care less if a person is gay straight or bi, but don't expect special treatment just because you feel the need to let everyone know what your sexuality is over who you are. Like to many things in this world, instead of one rule for all, their are rules for any group that complains enogh and one for the rest. If it turns out he has called anyone else names, then he should get nothing, as that would be double standards, not that this PC culture see's things that way these days.

My personall iritation like this is that you can't use the C word, because women find i offensive, though it is used usually in exactly the same context as calling someone a ****, or nob etc, yet they are perfectly acceptable even in PG movies, whereas the C word will get you an 18, how is it any different? It isn't but that's life these days.

[osnoozeo]

no offence intended, but to quote a friend of mine who is gay "being gay is the new black, some people think they need special attention for their sexuality that is above that of straight people". I take a lot of these claims from anywhere with a pinch of salt until the full details are given.

If he was persecuted only for his sexuality, then fair enough they deserve to get into trouble, tho if it's the more often case that he didn't get what he wants and uses the old "you are only doing that because i'm gay" he doesn't deserve a thing. My view is are you gay or a person, I couln't care less if a person is gay straight or bi, but don't expect special treatment just because you feel the need to let everyone know what your sexuality is over who you are. Like to many things in this world, instead of one rule for all, their are rules for any group that complains enogh and one for the rest. If it turns out he has called anyone else names, then he should get nothing, as that would be double standards, not that this PC culture see's things that way these days.

My personall iritation like this is that you can't use the C word, because women find i offensive, though it is used usually in exactly the same context as calling someone a ****, or nob etc, yet they are perfectly acceptable even in PG movies, whereas the C word will get you an 18, how is it any different? It isn't but that's life these days.

maybe they shouldnt act so damn fruity, i mean have u guys ever seen the gay march stuff, comeon now. really though maybe they just need to act like normal ppl, instead of acting like everyone needs to know there gay. like they should be treated any different than anyone else.

[Trashcat]

I think it's not too much to ask to keep your sexuality to yourself at work, when the work day is over you can go nuts about it with your friends. If you don't want to be treated differently don't differentiate yourself from others, don't ask don't tell.

[DEDDOA]

makes sense, they do after all have a track record of homophobia on live, ban people with possibly gay sounding names but leave all the homphobic gangsta wannabees to conting to ruin live foradults and young children, maybe if ms took a stand and banned them instead live would be a better place and the teenage fps players would learn that homophobia is every bit as bad a racism at least if they wanted to play online again ;)

There is a big difference between people who want everyone to know they are gay, or have names that some may sound offensive when neither have a place there, and persecution at work by fellow employee's. You will get idiots on any gaming network and if they have done anything offensive and are proven to have done so, they will get banned.

If you or everyone else just moans about these people but doesn't complain about them to MS with proof, don't complain as you are not helping yourself in any way. If anyone on XBL or PSN was to be intentionally aggresviely offensive to myself or anyone else in my home, I would report them, not just say that that is not on and leave it at that.

[grapeape]

MS's initial stance on that was that with some people "gaybob" and "flamerlarry" can be seen as derogatory by some while others see it as showing their "pride". You cant allow one without allowing the other so when there was a complaint they banned the user name. It would be the same if someone wanted to be "n*ggerbob", many would be offended others would think it was cool since in some social circles its acceptable. MS is kinda screwed no matter what choice is made because either way someone is going to be upset.

I have no problem with homosexuals, in fact one of my closest friends is gay, however as he describes it "dykes and fairies" seem to feel the need to flaunt for attention either positive or negative and most thrive on the negative so they can feel vicimized. There are millions of homosexuals who live normal lives look and act like normal people and unless they chose to tell you, you wouldnt know whether they were gay or straight. I've had alot of conversations over a beer or two about the issue with him, he thinks its alot of the problems in accepting gays as normal is the small minority that uses their sexual preferene to distinctly and loudy point out that they are "different"...and thinks deep down they like their self induced victim status and dont want to just be accepted and fit in. I think he is a little harsh but then im the straight one so where is it my place to state an opinion on a culture and lifestyle im not part of?

[Hgaara]

One thing I don't understand is if men are gay, and they like men, shouldn't you know... act like men? They act so feminine, yet they don't like women so they should act tougher and more manly but no, they act exactly the same as the people they don't like.

[SpiderCyde]

One thing I don't understand is if men are gay, and they like men, shouldn't you know... act like men? They act so feminine, yet they don't like women so they should act tougher and more manly but no, they act exactly the same as the people they don't like.

Exactly!! That's why they're so annoying. Do they honestly think people want to be around other people that exhibit bizarre behaviour, hell no. Nobody is better than anybody else, but if you flaunt your race, sex preference, you're actively trying to get attention to yourself, and that deserves to NOT be tolerated under any circumstances.

I for one cannot stand emo's, girly men (metros), or the hardcore fruits, they seriously get on my nerves, don't they ever shut up and act normal? They fail to realize that nobody gives a flying crap about them, so they need to knock off the attention seeking garbage. Probly why theyre gay if you think about it, maybe they didnt get enough attention from their dad or some crap like that, I dunno, or care.

[sirxlaughs]

One thing I don't understand is if men are gay, and they like men, shouldn't you know... act like men? They act so feminine, yet they don't like women so they should act tougher and more manly but no, they act exactly the same as the people they don't like.

By your logic, straight men should act more like women b/c that's what they like. That doesn't make any sense. It's not that gay men don't like women, they're just not sexually attracted to them. Kind of like how straight men don't dream about knobgobbling (or do they?).

[sirxlaughs]

Exactly!! That's why they're so annoying. Do they honestly think people want to be around other people that exhibit bizarre behaviour, hell no. Nobody is better than anybody else, but if you flaunt your race, sex preference, you're actively trying to get attention to yourself, and that deserves to NOT be tolerated under any circumstances.

I for one cannot stand emo's, girly men (metros), or the hardcore fruits, they seriously get on my nerves, don't they ever shut up and act normal? They fail to realize that nobody gives a flying crap about them, so they need to knock off the attention seeking garbage. Probly why theyre gay if you think about it, maybe they didnt get enough attention from their dad or some crap like that, I dunno, or care.

What about the ones who aren't trying to do anything? You can't ask a Chinese person to stop speaking with a chinese accent just b/c it's "annoying." What's bizarre to you might not be for someone else. If you don't like it, leave it alone. As long as it's not bothering you directly, what's the big deal? If someone starts trying to rape you, you can feel free to voice your concern. Not everyone fits into the mold you were put into. The world is diverse. If you can't live in it, stay in your bubble.

[(V)ega]

no offence intended, but to quote a friend of mine who is gay "being gay is the new black, some people think they need special attention for their sexuality that is above that of straight people".If your buddy ACTUALLY thinks that, he must be one of the biggest morons on the planet. Where are all these "Black" people that are constantly screaming, give me attention cause I'm black??? Only person I see that does that bull is Al Sharpton, who is one of the biggest bigots on the planet. Being gay is the new black.......lmao That made my day. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it happens for EVERYONE. I've seen people black do it, people white do it, people asian do it. Sometimes, everyone just has a chip on their shoulder.

[sindri1980]

Let´s play and let play

[twEAkEd]

He was prolly Outwardly gay. I have met gays in the work place on multiple occasions. Why do I know they were gay? Because they have to fuckn tell me and anyone who will listen. Most ppl don't give a shyte, but there are a few who don't want to hear it, and some find it offensive. Just as offensive as if I went around telling you, I like chicks. Yep. I like'em. Chicks that is. Lots of chicks. That is not acceptable. There is no reason to ever talk your sexual orientation in the work place. Gay or not. Its work. Not the local pub.

[SpiderCyde]

What about the ones who aren't trying to do anything? You can't ask a Chinese person to stop speaking with a chinese accent just b/c it's "annoying." What's bizarre to you might not be for someone else. If you don't like it, leave it alone. As long as it's not bothering you directly, what's the big deal? If someone starts trying to rape you, you can feel free to voice your concern. Not everyone fits into the mold you were put into. The world is diverse. If you can't live in it, stay in your bubble.

Normal is the way the majority of society behaves. Those who do not behave in the norm, behave abnormally. Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone ran around acting like Richard Simmons? It would literally be nightmare world, and there would be absolutely no use for women whatsoever. I have no problem with straight people, I have no problem with gay people, when people in general behave (whether straight or gay) outside the norm to the point where it becomes annoying to some, then it needs to stop. Abnormal behavior actually does offend some people in this world. In islamic countries, being gay is punishable by death. It highly offends them. But here, we give people an inch...and they always take a mile to suit their own interests, they do not care that their behavior may possible offend someone, all they care about is themselves. Change needs to be brought about gradually, not forced on those who arent willing to openly accept it. Consider how those people feel also.

[doxology]

everyone wants special rights these days. if you are a white guy that is right handed you probably have the least amount of rights in the united states. a left handed person can get a special scholorship for school. but i can't because i am a right handed person.

thats what i hate to see everyone regardless of race or anything. other groups are getting special rights and i am not getting any extra ones. it doesn't seem fair minorities are getting all sorts of special rights while they get more and more rights without me getting any of the extra ones.

i am not bashing any group of anything, but i am getting tired of hearting about people wanting special rights or special treatment because they think they deserve them because they are in a minority.

[billysastard]

How does it make sense when one is breaking rules by putting txt in their profile, and the other is talking on a mic (not breaking the rules)? And those people don't get "banned," they get suspended until they make the necessary changes to their profile.

you will note that i said "with possibly gay sounding names" it has been shown that ms has blocked accounts of people for using their real names which has nothing at all to do with their sexuality but does give quite a display of a homophobic attitude at ms.

put it this way, i'm straight and i'm crap at fps games (i dont like them) but a friend is a more typical 360 owner and when i visit him its pretty much fps or no gaming, do you honestly think that ms would ban the dozens of little toerags who make homophobic remarks towards me evertime i get slaughtered by them? its part of the reason i wont use online games at home we have children and no way would i want them exposing to some of the more typical live users, if ms want to ban / block people from live they should ban those people not genuine users who happen to have a name which might have the word gay or something similar in it.

[sirxlaughs]

you will note that i said "with possibly gay sounding names" it has been shown that ms has blocked accounts of people for using their real names which has nothing at all to do with their sexuality but does give quite a display of a homophobic attitude at ms.

put it this way, i'm straight and i'm crap at fps games (i dont like them) but a friend is a more typical 360 owner and when i visit him its pretty much fps or no gaming, do you honestly think that ms would ban the dozens of little toerags who make homophobic remarks towards me evertime i get slaughtered by them? its part of the reason i wont use online games at home we have children and no way would i want them exposing to some of the more typical live users, if ms want to ban / block people from live they should ban those people not genuine users who happen to have a name which might have the word gay or something similar in it.

If it's "possible gay sounding," then it violates the rules. If you don't know the rules, go read them. You can't even remotely suggest anything that may be sexual in any way in your profile. If you get reported/caught, don't ***** about it. Microsoft has said that they can not monitor conversations. That's why the report system is in place. That's why you have ignore and mute options. If you don't want your children being exposed to the conversations, use the parental controls. You can disable that feature of live so everything is muted and msgs are disabled.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/familysettings/live/xbox360/xboxlivecontrols.htm

The more you know.

Also, you are still arguing text vs conversation. One can not be monitored and you are allowed to voice what you want as will. Like when you are on the telephone, your service provider doesn't tell you not to scream bad words at the person on the other line. Write a blurb in a local paper, and you can get sued.

[MadMax31]

maybe they shouldnt act so damn fruity, i mean have u guys ever seen the gay march stuff, comeon now. really though maybe they just need to act like normal ppl, instead of acting like everyone needs to know there gay. like they should be treated any different than anyone else.

Completely agree with you, I really don't care what anybody do with their life, so why do they need to demonstrate other people their sexual preference? :confused:

[sirxlaughs]

Normal is the way the majority of society behaves. Those who do not behave in the norm, behave abnormally. Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone ran around acting like Richard Simmons? It would literally be nightmare world, and there would be absolutely no use for women whatsoever. I have no problem with straight people, I have no problem with gay people, when people in general behave (whether straight or gay) outside the norm to the point where it becomes annoying to some, then it needs to stop. Abnormal behavior actually does offend some people in this world. In islamic countries, being gay is punishable by death. It highly offends them. But here, we give people an inch...and they always take a mile to suit their own interests, they do not care that their behavior may possible offend someone, all they care about is themselves. Change needs to be brought about gradually, not forced on those who arent willing to openly accept it. Consider how those people feel also.

Can you imagine a world where everyone were "normal?" It would stink. And no, that is not what "normal" is. Normal is subjective. If everyone ran around acting like Richard Simmons? You mean working out and eating healthy? Simmons has probably contributed more to society than you ever will, flaming attitude or not. That's what makes the world such a great place. Everyone is not the same as everyone else. You say you have no problem with people, and then add a qualifier. You have no problem with people as long as they don't behave in a manner that does not agree with you. You do not have the right to not be offended. Perhaps the Islamic view towards gays offends me. Do I have the right to tell them to stop seeing things their way? No, I do not. Change always happens gradually, but it doesn't come easy. Those that resist it sometimes do it to their dying breath. Being gay is not new. In feudal Japan, is was something nobles did. It was a high class thing. But when you grow up in a society that tries to ingrain that something they don't understand is inherently bad, then it's hard to break away from that. Behavior doesn't need to stop when it "annoys" you. You just need to get away from that annoying behavior. You can feel free to tell your own children and such how to behave, but you can't control other people. To reiterate an ongoing theme, what annoys you, doesn't annoy everyone. You do not have the right to not be offended (unless slanderous or part of some "hate" crime).

[SpiderCyde]

We could argue this all day, agree to disagree? lol

[sirxlaughs]

We could argue this all day, agree to disagree? lol

Sounds good to me. :D

[DEDDOA]

If your buddy ACTUALLY thinks that, he must be one of the biggest morons on the planet. Where are all these "Black" people that are constantly screaming, give me attention cause I'm black??? Only person I see that does that bull is Al Sharpton, who is one of the biggest bigots on the planet. Being gay is the new black.......lmao That made my day. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it happens for EVERYONE. I've seen people black do it, people white do it, people asian do it. Sometimes, everyone just has a chip on their shoulder.

No i think it's more a case of being a social worker (maybe I should have also pointed out that he is also black, he is just my mate to me, skin colour or sexuality is a non issue, so I didn't think to mention it originally ), he hears the "it's because i'm black you are doing ..." line a lot, and now he gets the "it's because i'm gay you are doing ..." line as well. Thats not to say everyone who is black does that, just as everyone who is gay does the same, but it's more a case of there are those who will use these things (or any other excuse) as an excuse instead of looking at their own deficiancies, it just makes a greater impression as possible sexual or racial discrimination scares a good many people.

Prime example is a guy I used to work with, he used his skin colour as the reason for him not getting a promotion and filed a complaint. His boss was interviewed several times on the matter, and even though plenty of proof was given that he was not able to do the job (they were being kind on that front as he had screwed up a lot in the 6 months he had been on work trial, and had been abusive to a few customers), it wasn't untill complaints about him came in from people who had never actually seen him, and had only spoken to him on the phone, that his boss was actually let off. He left shortly after but, in a parting letter he claimed he had been given racial and sexual verbal abuse (i guess the sexuall verbal abuse was me telling him not to be a big girl and to take the fact that he screwed up like a man) from other staff and wanted compensation (luckily one of his friends forwarded the e-mail he sent saying he was going to falsly do that to get his own back on his boss, to his line manager, so nothing ever came from it).

Some people just make things bad for those who genuinely have problems, as it makes those who have had to put up with false claims before hand, less inclined to believe them. I know I have been jaded by the whole affair at work, and so have many others.

[Mordenkainen]

If it's "possible gay sounding," then it violates the rules. If you don't know the rules, go read them. You can't even remotely suggest anything that may be sexual in any way in your profile.

While a correct statement, the policy is wrong. First off, it itself is a form of discrimination.

Secondly, if my name were Gaylord Jones, and I create gamertag "GaylordJ", that name will be suspended. There is no sexual connotation there, but it still gets treated as if it did because some bigot with no brain may interpret it as such. This is just plain wrong, so don't try to defend the policy. The policy (at least to US users) is a violation of our rights (free speech, no discrimination for race/creed/color, and boatload of other laws) and even if you agree to a license or "term of service" no clause of that contract may be enforced if it violates law... Period... That is simple contract law.

The actual clause is:
Create a Gamertag , avatar or use text in other profile fields that may offend other members. This includes comments that look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate or relate to any of the following: profane words/phrases, topics or content of a sexual nature, hate speech (including but not limited to racial, ethnic, or religious slurs), illegal drugs/controlled substances, or illegal activities;

I find the letter "B" insulting. I don't need to tell you why, just that I find it offensive. Since the letter "B" may offend someone, then no user may have the letter "B" in their name. Also, "B" could be considered an abbreviation of *****, Bastard, or even Black (all potentially offensive). They use the term "includes" which implies that this is not the whole list. Filtering things that "might" offend people means filtering EVERYTHING. Why? because what offends you, doesn't offend me, and the possibility is there for ANYTHING to offend someone. So you must ban everything because it might be offensive to someone.

everyone wants special rights these days. if you are a white guy that is right handed you probably have the least amount of rights in the united states. a left handed person can get a special scholorship for school. but i can't because i am a right handed person.

thats what i hate to see everyone regardless of race or anything. other groups are getting special rights and i am not getting any extra ones. it doesn't seem fair minorities are getting all sorts of special rights while they get more and more rights without me getting any of the extra ones.

i am not bashing any group of anything, but i am getting tired of hearting about people wanting special rights or special treatment because they think they deserve them because they are in a minority.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is one of the issues with the US anti-discrimination laws. The "majority" are not covered by them in practice, though the law "technically" applies to everyone. The way the laws work, a minority (or other entity) can not discriminate against the majority. Minorities get special scholarships, if you are white you need not apply. They get special workplace rights, better employment opportunities because if the employer does not employ xxx minority workers, they must be discriminating against the minority, there is no assumption that maybe the "majority" member was a better fit for the job. To be a minority in the US is NOT to get equal rights, it's about getting MORE rights and privileges then the majority, in the interest of "fairness". Worse yet, it builds a feeling of "difference" between those who get extra, and those who don't. in the end re-enforcing the whole problem of bigotry that these laws are supposed to prevent! BLAH!

The people who I really respect are the minorities that actively refuse these special privileges, but they are unfortunately few and far between.

Morden.

[Blazeking]

The actual clause is:


I find the letter "B" insulting. I don't need to tell you why, just that I find it offensive. Since the letter "B" may offend someone, then no user may have the letter "B" in their name. Also, "B" could be considered an abbreviation of *****, Bastard, or even Black (all potentially offensive). They use the term "includes" which implies that this is not the whole list. Filtering things that "might" offend people means filtering EVERYTHING. Why? because what offends you, doesn't offend me, and the possibility is there for ANYTHING to offend someone. So you must ban everything because it might be offensive to someone.

The letter B can also mean "Blood". That word *might* offend a Crip; from the east coast anyway. I also looked at it that way with this paragraph and totally agree with the problem with the U.S. policy. Some europeans might not care because it's not their country and they don't have the same rights we do. That's something they refuse to understand. We have to freedom not to accept bullshit discrimination, of anything.

[sirxlaughs]

While a correct statement, the policy is wrong. First off, it itself is a form of discrimination.

Secondly, if my name were Gaylord Jones, and I create gamertag "GaylordJ", that name will be suspended. There is no sexual connotation there, but it still gets treated as if it did because some bigot with no brain may interpret it as such. This is just plain wrong, so don't try to defend the policy. The policy (at least to US users) is a violation of our rights (free speech, no discrimination for race/creed/color, and boatload of other laws) and even if you agree to a license or "term of service" no clause of that contract may be enforced if it violates law... Period... That is simple contract law.

It is not plain wrong. It has been Microsoft's policy for years, and it has, for the most part, worked. Microsoft is protecting themselves and their service. It is not discrimination if everyone is included. Live is a private service. They can set whatever rules they want. It is not a violation of your rights. You do not have the right to join. Private clubs can choose who are allowed to be members. You don't follow the rules, then you can't be member. It is not like walking around in public. If it violated the law, someone would've sued by now. Microsoft has lawyers too, remember? They are paid to know the law when drafting contracts.

The actual clause is:


I find the letter "B" insulting. I don't need to tell you why, just that I find it offensive. Since the letter "B" may offend someone, then no user may have the letter "B" in their name. Also, "B" could be considered an abbreviation of *****, Bastard, or even Black (all potentially offensive). They use the term "includes" which implies that this is not the whole list. Filtering things that "might" offend people means filtering EVERYTHING. Why? because what offends you, doesn't offend me, and the possibility is there for ANYTHING to offend someone. So you must ban everything because it might be offensive to someone.

They're clause related to actual law. Your goofy letter example is just... well... goofy. How is finding the letter "B" insulting related to something included in law like hate speech, profanity, etc. They aren't simply filtering "things" that might offend people. They are filtering things that can be considered unlawfully offensive (especially when children are concerned). Again, the rule has been in place long before these few complaints.

[(V)ega]

No i think it's more a case of being a social worker (maybe I should have also pointed out that he is also black, he is just my mate to me, skin colour or sexuality is a non issue, so I didn't think to mention it originally ), he hears the "it's because i'm black you are doing ..." line a lot, and now he gets the "it's because i'm gay you are doing ..." line as well. Thats not to say everyone who is black does that, just as everyone who is gay does the same, but it's more a case of there are those who will use these things (or any other excuse) as an excuse instead of looking at their own deficiancies, it just makes a greater impression as possible sexual or racial discrimination scares a good many people.

Prime example is a guy I used to work with, he used his skin colour as the reason for him not getting a promotion and filed a complaint. His boss was interviewed several times on the matter, and even though plenty of proof was given that he was not able to do the job (they were being kind on that front as he had screwed up a lot in the 6 months he had been on work trial, and had been abusive to a few customers), it wasn't untill complaints about him came in from people who had never actually seen him, and had only spoken to him on the phone, that his boss was actually let off. He left shortly after but, in a parting letter he claimed he had been given racial and sexual verbal abuse (i guess the sexuall verbal abuse was me telling him not to be a big girl and to take the fact that he screwed up like a man) from other staff and wanted compensation (luckily one of his friends forwarded the e-mail he sent saying he was going to falsly do that to get his own back on his boss, to his line manager, so nothing ever came from it).

Some people just make things bad for those who genuinely have problems, as it makes those who have had to put up with false claims before hand, less inclined to believe them. I know I have been jaded by the whole affair at work, and so have many others.

That's why I don't believe in affirmative action. It pisses my mom off a little but I told her, I bust my ass to get where I am. I want a job because I earned it, not because they need some black guy to fill a void. But I can kinda understand where you buddy is coming from. So it's more or less not him, but others just throwing a sticker/label on him?

[Mordenkainen]

It is not plain wrong. It has been Microsoft's policy for years, and it has, for the most part, worked. Microsoft is protecting themselves and their service. It is not discrimination if everyone is included. Live is a private service. They can set whatever rules they want. It is not a violation of your rights. You do not have the right to join. Private clubs can choose who are allowed to be members. You don't follow the rules, then you can't be member. It is not like walking around in public. If it violated the law, someone would've sued by now. Microsoft has lawyers too, remember? They are paid to know the law when drafting contracts.

Read a TOS or a license agreement sometime. You will find a lot that violates law in ANY TOS. The catch is, because different local and state laws (or even federal) may invalidate a clause, there is always a rider about unenforceable clauses. They would not need this if there was no concern of what they put in there being illegal. Just because MS has lawyers and they review the terms does not mean that those terms are wholly legal, but just that they are willing to take the gamble. As far as someone suing, MS has been sued countless times over clauses in their TOS's and licenses. It's not like it hasn't happened, it's just that someone has not tried it with Live yet.

An example of unenforceable clauses is an item whose TOS or license specifies "As is", in many states (Like Mass) as is sales can not exist. All sales come with the assumption that the dealer or manufacturer will "make it right" (that is the wording of the law) within 14 days of purchase.

The private club idea doesn't hold either. For that to happen the club must have membership fee's for all members by federal law (there was a case on this here in Mass just a couple of months ago) since there is a Silver membership with no Dues, it is considered a public club by law... Sorry.

They're clause related to actual law. Your goofy letter example is just... well... goofy. How is finding the letter "B" insulting related to something included in law like hate speech, profanity, etc. They aren't simply filtering "things" that might offend people. They are filtering things that can be considered unlawfully offensive (especially when children are concerned). Again, the rule has been in place long before these few complaints.

Their clause is in no way related to law. I can call myself by any name I choose. If I file a name change with the feds to Dumpytits HobKnobber, they can not deny it, though the name is offensive. There is very little that is considered unlawfully offensive in an uncontrolled environment such as nudity, but being gay, being black, or stating these things is not one of them. Read the clause... It is about filtering "things" that may, not are, considered offensive.

Here let me quote it again for you... this time read it.

Create a Gamertag , avatar or use text in other profile fields that may offend other members. This includes comments that look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate or relate to any of the following: profane words/phrases, topics or content of a sexual nature, hate speech (including but not limited to racial, ethnic, or religious slurs),
No mention of illegal up to this point
illegal drugs/controlled substances, or illegal activities;
Ah, there it is... so the "illegal" part only applies to illegal drugs (but legal ones are OK, so Heroin is not, but Methadone is) Or illegal activities.... I don't believe being a particular race/creed/or color can be classified as an illegal drug or activity... So nope, try reading it again!

That's why I don't believe in affirmative action. It pisses my mom off a little but I told her, I bust my ass to get where I am. I want a job because I earned it, not because they need some black guy to fill a void.

See now this is the attitude I respect.

[sirxlaughs]

Read a TOS or a license agreement sometime. You will find a lot that violates law in ANY TOS. The catch is, because different local and state laws (or even federal) may invalidate a clause, there is always a rider about unenforceable clauses. They would not need this if there was no concern of what they put in there being illegal. Just because MS has lawyers and they review the terms does not mean that those terms are wholly legal, but just that they are willing to take the gamble. As far as someone suing, MS has been sued countless times over clauses in their TOS's and licenses. It's not like it hasn't happened, it's just that someone has not tried it with Live yet.

Then perhaps you should try.

An example of unenforceable clauses is an item whose TOS or license specifies "As is", in many states (Like Mass) as is sales can not exist. All sales come with the assumption that the dealer or manufacturer will "make it right" (that is the wording of the law) within 14 days of purchase.

The private club idea doesn't hold either. For that to happen the club must have membership fee's for all members by federal law (there was a case on this here in Mass just a couple of months ago) since there is a Silver membership with no Dues, it is considered a public club by law... Sorry.

Silver members can not interact in the game forums. You won't "run into" them, and won't be able to report them. You still accept the ToS and are given the ability to "upgrade" to gold status. Silver members are limited members, like limited public access to a private club. Sorry.


Their clause is in no way related to law. I can call myself by any name I choose. If I file a name change with the feds to Dumpytits HobKnobber, they can not deny it, though the name is offensive. There is very little that is considered unlawfully offensive in an uncontrolled environment such as nudity, but being gay, being black, or stating these things is not one of them. Read the clause... It is about filtering "things" that may, not are, considered offensive.

You can call yourself whatever you want. When you try to join a club, they can deny you admission depending on whatever criteria they choose.

Here let me quote it again for you... this time read it.


No mention of illegal up to this point

Ah, there it is... so the "illegal" part only applies to illegal drugs (but legal ones are OK, so Heroin is not, but Methadone is) Or illegal activities.... I don't believe being a particular race/creed/or color can be classified as an illegal drug or activity... So nope, try reading it again!

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters to them is their liability in what may come of it. They are protecting themselves and their service. You don't have to agree with it, but you need to comply by it if you want to be a part of it. Otherwise, try to do something about it. Arguing with me and telling me to read their ToS over and over won't make it read differently. It'll still say the same thing, and Microsoft will still enforce the same rules.

[Mordenkainen]

Silver members can not interact in the game forums. You won't "run into" them, and won't be able to report them. You still accept the ToS and are given the ability to "upgrade" to gold status. Silver members are limited members, like limited public access to a private club. Sorry.

Any public access eliminates the ability to limit on the grounds that you are a "private" club. For example a "gentleman's club" that allows public access can not then limit membership to men only, because they allowed that public access. This was actually the circumstances of that case in Mass I was mentioning.

Arguing with me and telling me to read their ToS over and over won't make it read differently. It'll still say the same thing, and Microsoft will still enforce the same rules.

But it does NOT say what you claim. It in fact DOES READ DIFFERENTLY. Show me where in the TOS it says that it restricts these things due to their being unlawful, which was your statement. Hence why I suggested you read it again. Your statement as to what the clause covers it not in the clause, or surrounding clauses, at all. Your argument that they can deny the name may be true for MS due to other reasons, but my statement there did not have to do with MS. It had to due with the legal implications of changing your legal name. If offensive names were unlawful, they could deny the change, but they can't. Even changing to something related to something unlawful, like John Q. Rapist is legal. It was an illustration of how the "unlawfully offensive" comment doesn't hold true, there is very little that is "unlawfully offensive".

They are filtering things that can be considered unlawfully offensive

[sirxlaughs]

Any public access eliminates the ability to limit on the grounds that you are a "private" club. For example a "gentleman's club" that allows public access can not then limit membership to men only, because they allowed that public access. This was actually the circumstances of that case in Mass I was mentioning.

Was the public access limited or restricted?


But it does NOT say what you claim. It in fact DOES READ DIFFERENTLY. Show me where in the TOS it says that it restricts these things due to their being unlawful, which was your statement. Hence why I suggested you read it again. Your statement as to what the clause covers it not in the clause, or surrounding clauses, at all. Your argument that they can deny the name may be true for MS due to other reasons, but my statement there did not have to do with MS. It had to due with the legal implications of changing your legal name. If offensive names were unlawful, they could deny the change, but they can't. Even changing to something related to something unlawful, like John Q. Rapist is legal. It was an illustration of how the "unlawfully offensive" comment doesn't hold true, there is very little that is "unlawfully offensive".

It doesn't have to state the legalities of it's rules. Microsoft is protecting themselves from possibilities. If you can prove that Xbox Live is a place of public accommodation, then go for it. You're talking about federal law with regards to name changes. I said you can change your name, but a private club can look at it and say, "Sorry, we don't accept John Q. Rapists here."