Blu-ray breakthrough, low end discs now a possiblity

[Zeus]

Pioneer and Mitsubishi have together succeeded in the commercialization of recordable Blu-ray Discs with organic dye in the recording layer. The organic dye means that large-scale investments would no longer be required, so that the current coating facilities for CD-R and DVD-R can be used for BD production lines. With only minor adjustments needed to CD-R and DVD-R production lines, it makes low priced discs a real possibility.

<center><img src="http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/bluraycoa.jpg"></center></a>



Pioneer Corporation (TSE: 6773) and Mitsubishi Kagaku media Co., Ltd. have together succeeded in the commercialization of recordable Blu-ray Discs (BD-R) with organic dye in the recording layer, and also in developing technology for multiple layered, high speed recording for BD-R with metal nitride in the recording layer.

Both companies had been collaborating to develop BD-R with dye since 2004. With this development, Mitsubishi Kagaku Media was responsible for improving organic dye recording materials and producing sample discs, while Pioneer was responsible for evaluating the samples, as well as disc structure design based on verification and simulations for compatibility with disc drives. The synergy of these two areas of expertise has led to a successful development of the 2X organic dye BD-R.

Since the announcement[1] of the joint development in 2005, Mitsubishi Kagaku Media and Pioneer have also been promoting the standardization of organic dye recording media, and this spring, a recording format (Low to High Type format) for organic dye BD-R has been adopted into the BD-R Format Ver. 1.2[2].
With this standardization, the mass production of organic dye recording media has now become possible with BD-R. Discs with organic dye do not require large-scale investments in facilities so that the current coating facilities for CD-R and DVD-R can be used for BD production lines with only minor adjustments, making low priced discs a possibility.


News Source: <a href="http://www.itnews.it/2007/1023121801565/pioneer-and-mitsubishi-kagaku-announce-use-of-organic-dye-recording-film-in-blu-ray-recordable-discs-and-technology-for-recordable-blu-ray-discs-with-metal-nitride-film.html" target=_blank">itnews</a>

[Rockman_Joey]

Thats very good news indeed

I saw a BD-R in Tesco and for 25GB it was £25 which is a £1 for every Gigabyte.

Pricy but I wouldnt mind the space though but I may have to invest in a BD Burner Drive for my PC

[kenneth131]

hi all welllll i have some adjustments to make to my posts from
http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=85283

as my argument against blu ray was the vast implimentation costs to those that were going to convert to produce blu ray movies etc but as this new information comes to light i will hold my hands up and as im not a fanboy say blu ray would now be the prefered method of storing media now

the only main factor i see now is time, if this can be rolled out for early 2008 it will or should pretty much kill off HD DVD as per my previous post blu ray $ per Mb you are cheaper with the blu ray disk. the main reason mass production has not been taken up in a big way before was the heavy cost on implimenting the changes allowing recordings to blu ray now though it looks to be the best option
more Mb for your $ and no heavy cost involved in converting to the medium.

[LilMikey]

I'm with that guy, cheap record-ables is what would sell a format for me.

[gmu]

i will believe when i see shops selling bluray discs for a reasonable price/gb ratio.
One dvdr now is 0.3e for 4.7gb.. i'd be ready to pay some additional cost for the ability to store more stuff on one br disk (less time lost compared to burning multiple dvdrs, possibility to store full hd content in one disk etc.) but no more than 0.1euro/gb, so let see 15gb blu-ray media for 1.5euro/piece, max 2.

[MaTiAz]

Wow, sweet. Now when they get faster and cheaper burners, BD will be a nice data storage format.

[rbranma]

Nice news! It HAS to become cheaper. Because, for 50 GB blu-ray disk you pay whole 30 bucks, which is bullshit.
It had to happen.

[modojojo]

excellent news, burner prices should fall soon.

[Sinar]

BD-R 25gb = £11.39 BD-R 50gb = £15-20 - BD-RE 25gb = £10 (Verbatim/Sony).
If this could halve or quarter the prices i would be very interested.

[XxBigP123xX]

blu ray ftw:cool:

[pezjono]

Let's hope that this happens soon. At this point, I don't care which one "wins" the format war, I just want one to "win".

[onyxx]

Let's hope that this happens soon. At this point, I don't care which one "wins" the format war, I just want one to "win".
VHS vs. Betamax lasted roughly 7 years, but dont worry if this goes on any longer the hybrid players will come out and people wont care who wins.

[sigma8]

I don't know when this development will become reality, but at least it will end the stupid argument that HD-DVDs are a lot cheaper to produce. It was just a matter of time before they figured out ways to increase yields at lower costs.

[daps83777]

kind of interesting. but isn't blu-ray tech still more expensive because you have to use brand new technology and invest in new equipment. while for hd-dvd you can use the dvd equipment i believe which is one of the supposed selling points for it.

after what transformers just did on hd-dvd it makes this whole thing fairly interesting because its the best hd format first week seller ever. people that said this "war" was going to end soon are definately not correct. it seems this is going to be drawn out for some time.

all the while dvd's keep selling like crazy. it would still seem the majority of movie watchers are happy with dvd quality video and audio. which wasn't the case when dvd took over for vhs that everyone was completely fed up with.

[JonathanD]

kind of interesting. but isn't blu-ray tech still more expensive because you have to use brand new technology and invest in new equipment. while for hd-dvd you can use the dvd equipment i believe which is one of the supposed selling points for it.

after what transformers just did on hd-dvd it makes this whole thing fairly interesting because its the best hd format first week seller ever. people that said this "war" was going to end soon are definately not correct. it seems this is going to be drawn out for some time.

all the while dvd's keep selling like crazy. it would still seem the majority of movie watchers are happy with dvd quality video and audio. which wasn't the case when dvd took over for vhs that everyone was completely fed up with.

Thats a good analysis of the situation. Most people seem happy enough with DVD's, myself included. When the time comes for an upgrade I will just pick what ever format "won" lol

[daps83777]

Thats a good analysis of the situation. Most people seem happy enough with DVD's, myself included. When the time comes for an upgrade I will just pick what ever format "won" lol

i don't need the best quality. i wll buy an hd player when one wins or when one of the players is under $100. dvd is good enough for me. especially with a good upscaler. it may not be blu-ray quality but to be honest i don't care. if people care so much about things like sound and video quality then how come divx and mp3 formats are at an all time high for usage?

[intertan]

although I do like blu-ray, all I want to know is who will win. besides if I remember correctly hd-dvd only does 1080i wile blu-ray can do 1080p. small stuff but I plan on getting a hdtv as soon as a format wins.

[daps83777]

although I do like blu-ray, all I want to know is who will win. besides if I remember correctly hd-dvd only does 1080i wile blu-ray can do 1080p. small stuff but I plan on getting a hdtv as soon as a format wins.

hd-dvd can do 1080p. hd-dvd is also cheaper to produce because it can use the same fab as standard dvd making it so companies don't have to invest in totally new technology. also thus far the interactive menu's are way better on hd-dvd. the only thing really going for blu-ray is the capacity.

[grd94533]

hd-dvd can do 1080p. hd-dvd is also cheaper to produce because it can use the same fab as standard dvd making it so companies don't have to invest in totally new technology. also thus far the interactive menu's are way better on hd-dvd. the only thing really going for blu-ray is the capacity.

You're the second person who obviosly did not read all the headlines. They said the current coating facilities for CD-R and DVD-R can be used for BD production lines.

[daps83777]

You're the second person who obviosly did not read all the headlines. They said the current coating facilities for CD-R and DVD-R can be used for BD production lines.

ok so does that mean that they can know use the same lasers on blu-ray as they can on hd-dvd and dvd? because that was the main difference before. blu-ray required new laser technology while hd-dvd used the same laser as standard dvd.

[darkvokhens]

ok so does that mean that they can know use the same lasers on blu-ray as they can on hd-dvd and dvd? because that was the main difference before. blu-ray required new laser technology while hd-dvd used the same laser as standard dvd.

wrong, blu-ray and hd-dvd use the same laser 405nm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

scroll down to the table

EDIT: and i don't know what you mean when hddvd and dvd use the same equip, you still need to buy the player, buy the disc, and get an hdtv, same with bd

[daps83777]

wrong, blu-ray and hd-dvd use the same laser 405nm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

scroll down to the table

interesting. but still i would think the more capacity the higher the price, which i would think would lead to blu-ray always being more expensive as long as their supply and demand stays about the same.

this could make it more interesting, the question is what kind of time table is there for this. also if the two formats are getting so close in the way they are produced then makes you wonder if they would consider trying to merge the two formats again. it seems it is becoming more viable. and it would solve all the problems by giving consumers only one hd option.


EDIT: and i don't know what you mean when hddvd and dvd use the same equip, you still need to buy the player, buy the disc, and get an hdtv, same with bd

dvd and hd-dvd shared enough characteristics that the fab techniques where very similiar making hd-dvd fabrication alot cheaper than blu-ray. people fabricating dvd's could use the same equipment to fab the hd-dvd discs from what i read anyways. while blu-ray required all new fab equipment raising the costs for companies to manufacture the discs. that is one of the reasons given to why hd-dvd technology was cheaper when it was released. for instance the hd-dvd players costing $500 half of the $1,000 blu-ray players. thats how i thought it worked unless i misunderstood something, which i am pretty sure i didn't.

[sigma8]

kind of interesting. but isn't blu-ray tech still more expensive because you have to use brand new technology and invest in new equipment. while for hd-dvd you can use the dvd equipment i believe which is one of the supposed selling points for it.
Um, that's exactly what the story was about. With new coatings, they can basically stamp blu-rays using normal DVD/CDR facilities.. So no, you don't need to get new equipment. So they say.


after what transformers just did on hd-dvd it makes this whole thing fairly interesting because its the best hd format first week seller ever. people that said this "war" was going to end soon are definately not correct. it seems this is going to be drawn out for some time.
Every single "big" HD release will start having better first weeks as uptake increases. Back when 300 came out--which was a dual release--it sold more copies on blu-ray. This is potentially more significant, as it represents a snapshot of the market at the time using a fair comparison. Transformers has no blu-ray competition this week. Maybe when Spiderman 3 or Pirates 3 comes out, there will be no answer on the HD-DVD side. HD-DVD will also have a few more big releases coming up that are exclusive.

However, "first week sales" will grow on both sides as more people buy HDTV's and HD players.


all the while dvd's keep selling like crazy. it would still seem the majority of movie watchers are happy with dvd quality video and audio. which wasn't the case when dvd took over for vhs that everyone was completely fed up with.

It has more to do with cost and accessibility. HD Cable TV is feeble compared to standard def cable. It's like 200 channels versus 15. A 27" standard def TV is less than $300. The same amount of money will only get you a 17" or 19" widescreen LCD that is HD capable--but the image quality won't be as good for the money...I mean, the resolution will be better, but cheap LCD's will have worse contrast, motion blur issues, etc.. and possibly do particularly crappy jobs displaying standard-def content....which as I said, that's still most content.

Then you have price of HD cable. It's usually an add-on fee to standard-def cable, which is already fairly pricey. Not everyone wants to or can pay $100 a month for cable. Finally, the players and even the movies themselves. The cheapest blu-ray player is famously $399 (or will be, come November). The cheapest HD-DVD player will be some no-name brand selling for perhaps a bit less than $199, which may have quality issues and even if it doesn't, it will still cost 4-5 times more than a standard DVD player with progressive scan. Movies cost $5-20 more.. There are no "budget" titles yet.

IMO, demand will stay weak at current prices. Right now it's a battle for the high and upper medium-end. Low end isn't even interested.

[daps83777]

Every single "big" HD release will start having better first weeks as uptake increases. Back when 300 came out--which was a dual release--it sold more copies on blu-ray. This is potentially more significant, as it represents a snapshot of the market at the time using a fair comparison. Transformers has no blu-ray competition this week. Maybe when Spiderman 3 or Pirates 3 comes out, there will be no answer on the HD-DVD side. HD-DVD will also have a few more big releases coming up that are exclusive.

The cheapest HD-DVD player will be some no-name brand selling for perhaps a bit less than $199, which may have quality issues and even if it doesn't, it will still cost 4-5 times more than a standard DVD player with progressive scan. Movies cost $5-20 more.. There are no "budget" titles yet.

whats interesting though is that an hd-dvd release has done better in its first week than any hd format release before. its not as if there haven't been some big movies released in hd formats. and with everyone around here claiming that everyone wanted a PS3 for blu-ray you would expect that with the supposed difference in installed base that an hd-dvd release wouldn't have a chance to take that record right now.

also there are supposed to be two hd-dvd players this Christmas season at $199. one from a company i was very familiar with and one from toshiba. from what i have heard in the last week. i haven't read much about any super cheap blu-ray players but i could have missed something if there is something cheaper.

but still neither format has even made a small dent in standard dvd sales. and with news like this about blu-ray finding a way to solve some of its issues it would seem like it would be best for everyone if hd-dvd and blu-ray tried to make an arrangement for a unified format. at this point it seems the two technologies are getting closer to each other. and it would make it so neither side would lose in a technical sense anyways.

[sigma8]

interesting. but still i would think the more capacity the higher the price, which i would think would lead to blu-ray always being more expensive as long as their supply and demand stays about the same.
Well, this certainly has been the case until this development. However, as with most technology, obstacles are surmounted. HD-DVD opted for a more convenient production method, albeit one that limited its capacity. Blu-ray opted for more capacity, but required new materials in order to do it.

Obviously, HD-DVD will be available in a 45gig format (triple layer), there's no doubts here. So the HD-DVD camp will also be able able to surmount their own obstacles and make bigger discs. The problem with that is compatibility. They had defined their spec, and their spec was making a 30 gig disc cheaply. To get around the 30 gig, they need to make a different kind of disc.

Blu-ray's strategy was to make a 50 gig disc expensively. So all they had to figure out was how to make the disc more cheaply--that's simply another surmountable obstacle. However, unlike making a bigger HD-DVD disc, reducing blu-ray production cost is all in the facility, not the disc. So compatibility is maintained.

There are, of course, rumors that one and/or both of the new triple/quadruple layer HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be compatible via firmware updates. I have my doubts about this. Either way, blu-ray does have an advantage in that they chose a production obstacle as their "first" obstacle, instead of an obstacle inherent to the design of the disc, which will ultimately be more troublesome to surmount--not because it will be more difficult to do, but because it might not play in existing players.



this could make it more interesting, the question is what kind of time table is there for this. also if the two formats are getting so close in the way they are produced then makes you wonder if they would consider trying to merge the two formats again. it seems it is becoming more viable. and it would solve all the problems by giving consumers only one hd option.

The reason they aren't already merged is because Microsoft hated portions of the blu-ray "spec" including BD-Java.


dvd and hd-dvd shared enough characteristics that the fab techniques where very similiar making hd-dvd fabrication alot cheaper than blu-ray. people fabricating dvd's could use the same equipment to fab the hd-dvd discs from what i read anyways. while blu-ray required all new fab equipment raising the costs for companies to manufacture the discs. that is one of the reasons given to why hd-dvd technology was cheaper when it was released. for instance the hd-dvd players costing $500 half of the $1,000 blu-ray players. thats how i thought it worked unless i misunderstood something, which i am pretty sure i didn't.
Well, remember that disc production facilities aren't a bunch of DVD-RW burners. They "stamp" discs. I don't think lasers are involved (but I'm not positive; certainly, it's not a given). The players, on the other hand, are using lasers...so differences in disc costs are moot. I think the pricey thing there were the special diodes that blu-ray players needed.

I'm not sure what's keeping their price high. It might be the additional hardware needed to support stupid Java.

[sigma8]

whats interesting though is that an hd-dvd release has done better in its first week than any hd format release before. its not as if there haven't been some big movies released in hd formats.

Yeah, but unless you know how much the market grew (or didn't grow) since 300, then you really can't say. Maybe in late July, there were 2 million HD-DVD players on the market...and in October, there are 8 million. So in order to maintain the same proportionate "release successfulness" a release would have to sell 4 times as many copies to be comparable to something released in late July.

Alternatively, the movie may simply be really popular. You could have 10 million HD-DVD players versus 1 million Blu-ray players, but I bet you, if you released Lord of the Rings on blu-ray, it will still have bigger sales in the first week than The Pianist--despite a huge install-base advantage for HD-DVD.

This is why it's a lot more informative when the same movie comes out for both at the same time--because that's the only time when you can compare sales in an identical environment, where all your variables are identical except for demand.


also there are supposed to be two hd-dvd players this Christmas season at $199. one from a company i was very familiar with and one from toshiba. from what i have heard in the last week. i haven't read much about any super cheap blu-ray players but i could have missed something if there is something cheaper.
$199 is a big deal. Every $100 increment is a big deal. The player will have to be worth it, though. If people are buying 1080p TV's, they will not want that $199 player. The problem with the $199 player, is it is not fully featured...it's definitely like buying something where you know there is better.. I don't just mean nicer, but better at its core task. This is irrelevant if your TV only goes up to 1080i, though....which is why it's still going to be the product to beat.


but still neither format has even made a small dent in standard dvd sales. and with news like this about blu-ray finding a way to solve some of its issues it would seem like it would be best for everyone if hd-dvd and blu-ray tried to make an arrangement for a unified format. at this point it seems the two technologies are getting closer to each other. and it would make it so neither side would lose in a technical sense anyways.
Well, beta and VHS constantly became more similar to one another, too. The dealbreaker there was content agreements...so we'll have to see if any other studios defect or switch sides. It will be crucial. Also: the speed at which one or the other is integrated into the computer realm will play a small role too.

[Azariel]

I don't trust optical media for storage purposes. External HD are much better.

[n0rthstar]

Lets just hope they arent so cheaply made that they fall apart 3-6 months later.

"This disk will self destruct in 3 months" dun, dun dun, dun, dun dun.

Im happy with Xvid, 6 movies on one standard DVD. Who could ask for anything more.