View Full Version : Insomniac doubts value of 60fps on games
Ratchet and Clank developer has written a fairly lengthy report on the lack of value that 60fps support provides on the latest games. A deep report found that higher framerates do not increase the sales of the game, nor to they significantly affect the reviews.
<blockquote>However, during development, there are hard choices to be made between higher quality graphics and framerate. And we want to make the right choices that reflect our commitment to providing you with the best looking games out there. To that end, our community team did some research into the question of framerate. The results perhaps confirmed what I’ve known for a long time, but found it difficult to accept without evidence. They found that:
•A higher framerate does not significantly affect sales of a game.
•A higher framerate does not significantly affect the reviews of a game.</blockquote>
News Source: <a href="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378382" target="_Blank">Neogaf</a>
nambit
11-01-2009, 05:00 PM
I strongly disagree. It depends on the game itself. Looking at metroid Prime
(especially the Wii version), that runs at a smooth 60 fps, it really helps
the game a great deal. This version in particular (prior to the trilogy) is really
awesome in hyper mode difficulty and the 60fps adds to the perception of urgency
as well as the responsiveness of the gamer's pointing ability with the wii-mote
(not to mention the overall 3D effect it has on the person).
I think as motion control games (if done right) come into play on the other platforms,
folks will understand how important 60fps will be. Think about all those gun shooter
games in the past (house of the dead and such), they're generally 60fps and
it's an integral part of that experience. It has everything to do with emulating
real-life experience as it affects our physical motion and reaction. With regular
gamepads, it's different as your body is not really doing much (just the fingers).
ThreeDog
11-01-2009, 05:30 PM
Reviews don't include bugs either does that mean the game should be full of them? I don't care if it doesn't increase sales if you can run at 60fps you should, If you want to include more detail outside multiplayer go for 30fps.
With this mentality i wonder how the extra 3DTV is really going to work we're missing 60fps on the PS3 as it is (not that it matters).
Trashcat
11-01-2009, 05:53 PM
Doesn't matter that much for console shooters because gamepad kills your skill before your aiming can take advantage of higher frame rate, however the game feels more fluid that way so its still nice. So what's next playing down the importance of 1080p for games? Yet another thing sony promised and failed to deliver, and Ms was smart enough not to promise it in the first place.
DKing
11-01-2009, 06:36 PM
I think it's a good call. Use those cpu cycles where they actually make a difference.
DEDDOA
11-01-2009, 06:59 PM
They are spot on, 60FPS is only of use on games that require extreme accuracy and timing, tho that siad things like fighting games benefit more from a stable decent frame rate even tho high frame rate is a bonus. Infact the only time I can see somthing like 60FPS being a genuine benefit is on FPS as it makes for more precise targetting, but then thats only on the PC mouse argetting, the console control pad controls usually have a lot of compensation that mouse targetting doesn't (if you try to use a KB/Mouse adapter for a console it is very clear that somthing is not quite right with almost sticky targetting).
Don't get me wrong a nice high frame rate for smooth gameplay is always nice, but i'd rather have a stable frame rate at half that and improvements elswhere. Same goes for 1080p over 720p, you can always tell a 1080p game, it has almost last gen gfx but nice and sharp, which again is no bad thing, but i'd rather have a nice more stable 720p or even 640p game.
waldog
11-01-2009, 10:35 PM
Doesn't matter that much for console shooters because gamepad kills your skill before your aiming can take advantage of higher frame rate, however the game feels more fluid that way so its still nice. So what's next playing down the importance of 1080p for games? Yet another thing sony promised and failed to deliver, and Ms was smart enough not to promise it in the first place.
Maybe M$ never promised it cause the 360 can't do true 1080p? :rolleyes:
You and Illness kill me with your non-sense. Insomniac isn't even owned by Sony. Yet you pull Sony into it like they have say on what devs choose to do.
Trashcat
11-02-2009, 12:08 AM
Maybe M$ never promised it cause the 360 can't do true 1080p? :rolleyes:
Both ps3 and 360 are well capable of 1080p but devs choose to run games at 720p or lower and use the power for higher detail. Ms realized it right away but sony had to flap the jaw about true HD gaming to add to the FUD that was spread about 360, but in the end sony didn't make 1080p mandatory for ps3 games, which they should have done if they were serious about true HD gaming.
You and Illness kill me with your non-sense. Insomniac isn't even owned by Sony. Yet you pull Sony into it like they have say on what devs choose to do.
Insomniac gets preferential treatment and "help" from sony in exchange for exclusivity, or do you think all their games are sony-exclusive because they like sony so much? Ms doesn't own Epic either but Gears is 360 exclusive, why? Because Ms paid for it, that's how the world of grownups works.
msanchez
11-02-2009, 12:47 AM
I'm on middle ground on this one. It would be nice to see all games running at 60fps, but I'll take smooth 30fps over stuttery 60fps any day. I don't really think it's indispensable or anything... in fact I honestly think 80% of the time it's nothing more than fodder in fanboy wars, but it's something devs should aim for. If possible it can only be a good thing, but if it's not possible to do it right then I just prefer them to do things right, even if that means 720p/30fps.
d33znutzEP
11-02-2009, 12:58 AM
60fps on consple FPS's is kind of pointless. Yes it will be smoother flowing and all that, but it really isn't that noticeable compared to FPS's on the PC where you actually have to aim with the mouse.
DEDDOA
11-02-2009, 05:39 AM
Maybe M$ never promised it cause the 360 can't do true 1080p? :rolleyes:
You and Illness kill me with your non-sense. Insomniac isn't even owned by Sony. Yet you pull Sony into it like they have say on what devs choose to do.
Consoles could do 1920x1080 last gen, but they would have ran like dogs. Sony only promised it as they expected lower graphic standard this gen based on the pre-launch 360 and Wii specs, they also promised it dual screen display, both of which would have been possible if the PS3 had been working with a lower standard of GFX like the Wii's. Since the 360 set the bar when it was released with nigh on 2x the power they had claimed pre launch with no 1080p claims, Sony soon dropped the rediculous claims when they finally realised that things that happen in sleepy time are not reality. The fact that many devs use the likes of 640P shows tho that 1080p is unrealistic this gen on anything but low detail games.
720p is a fine resolution, the only real game I think looked rough like that is Tekken 6, but i guess that is due to being used to 1080p Tekken5: DR on the PS3 :)
legendofphil
11-02-2009, 05:40 AM
I'm on middle ground on this one. It would be nice to see all games running at 60fps, but I'll take smooth 30fps over stuttery 60fps any day.
I also would prefer a stable frame rate but its not a choice. If you want that game the frame rate is irrelevant, you will buy it anyway.
Which is the point that is made here.
DEDDOA
11-02-2009, 05:45 AM
I also would prefer a stable frame rate but its not a choice. If you want that game the frame rate is irrelevant, you will buy it anyway.
Which is the point that is made here.
That is very true, tho that said I still remeber Doom on the Sega Saturn, I wanted the game but the frame rate was attrocious (which was odd considering Exhumed managed a better job with more detail and oddly at the time less need for hiding tricks to keep frame rate up than the PS1) which put me off it. Tho that said you are right, 20fps or 60fps if you want the game and it plays well enough, the frame rate is a non issue.
ThreeDog
11-02-2009, 05:52 AM
60FPS is pointless on a console that has direct SDK support for keyboard and mouse?
Maybe the reason developers don't do better is because there's not enough uproar, would it be that hard to enable separate keyboard/mouse and gamepad modes and stick a nice frame rate in with it instead of a game with excessive motion blur?
Im not bashing but this does make me wonder how these people will ever have any hope to fully lure the PC FPS gamers away, i would consider making that move rather than upgrading every year just for a mouse and keyboard.
waldog
11-02-2009, 08:09 AM
Both ps3 and 360 are well capable of 1080p but devs choose to run games at 720p or lower and use the power for higher detail. Ms realized it right away but sony had to flap the jaw about true HD gaming to add to the FUD that was spread about 360, but in the end sony didn't make 1080p mandatory for ps3 games, which they should have done if they were serious about true HD gaming.
Insomniac gets preferential treatment and "help" from sony in exchange for exclusivity, or do you think all their games are sony-exclusive because they like sony so much? Ms doesn't own Epic either but Gears is 360 exclusive, why? Because Ms paid for it, that's how the world of grownups works.
THE 360 CAN'T DO TRUE 1080P. PERIOD. It can upscale, but it CAN'T do 1080p.
msanchez
11-02-2009, 10:51 AM
I also would prefer a stable frame rate but its not a choice. If you want that game the frame rate is irrelevant, you will buy it anyway.
Which is the point that is made here.
Not necessarily. I mean I would have no problem getting any 30fps game since I don't really stand there and try to calculate how many frames per second a game has... or it's resolution... or any other silly technical details, but I wouldn't get a game that I know is somewhat buggy, or that I know has annoying stutter. The game doesn't have to be perfectly smooth either, but sometimes I can just feel like the game is just way too much for the console.
grapeape
11-02-2009, 11:07 AM
I really dont get the problem...if going to 30fps as a baseline allows for better lighting, more on screen enemies, better textures, etc...then who on earth would be upset? I'd rather have the better looking game than the higher resolution one, i've never understood why some think that 60fps automatically makes games look better. A smooth and consistent 30fps beats a 60fps with sporadic slow downs and lessened features any day.
As for 1080p, HD is still in the minority and 1080p is a miniscule portion of HD owners eventually it will be the norm but at the moment its a waste of money and resources to even try to cater to such a niche.
DanASBO
11-02-2009, 01:11 PM
THE 360 CAN'T DO TRUE 1080P. PERIOD. It can upscale, but it CAN'T do 1080p.
Have we gone back in time? The 360 can output a 1080p signal, both digital via HDMI and analog over VGA/Component. Period.
waldog
11-02-2009, 01:12 PM
Have we gone back in time? The 360 can output a 1080p signal, both digital via HDMI and analog over VGA/Component. Period.
It can UPSCALE it.
DanASBO
11-02-2009, 01:17 PM
It can UPSCALE it.
It CAN upscale, it can also output a true 1080p signal and has done since the dash update in '06. Very few games are native 1080p but it can do it. Do some research. ;)
waldog
11-02-2009, 01:25 PM
It CAN upscale, it can also output a true 1080p signal and has done since the dash update in '06. Very few games are native 1080p but it can do it. Do some research. ;)
The dash update may have gave it SIMULATED 1080p. But I really don't think a software can do a hardware job.
If you google it, all the results that come back say the same thing. It's simulated. It's not really "true" 1080p. As in the hardware doing it.
DanASBO
11-02-2009, 01:28 PM
The dash update may have gave it SIMULATED 1080p. But I really don't think a software can do a hardware job.
If you google it, all the results that come back say the same thing. It's simulated. It's not really "true" 1080p. As in the hardware doing it.
You're completely and utterly wrong. The 360 supports native 1080p. "Period". I won't be debating a 3 year old topic, as I stated earlier; do some research.
waldog
11-02-2009, 01:33 PM
You're completely and utterly wrong. The 360 supports native 1080p. "Period". I won't be debating a 3 year old topic, as I stated earlier; do some research.
I did research it. Got a link to prove the native? I may be wrong. But won't say otherwise until I see proof.:)
DanASBO
11-02-2009, 01:36 PM
I did research it. Got a link to prove the native? I may be wrong. But won't say otherwise until I see proof.:)
It's 3 year old news... just search "fall dash update '06"
Link (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11475)
waldog
11-02-2009, 01:42 PM
It's 3 year old news... just search "fall dash update '06"
Link (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11475)
It allows people to "view". It doesn't say it's native. As I stated. All the stuff I have read, says simulated. Not trying to argue or anything. I'm just saying. I have yet to see reliable info that says its' "true" 1080p. :)
DanASBO
11-02-2009, 01:47 PM
It allows people to "view". It doesn't say it's native. As I stated. All the stuff I have read, says simulated. Not trying to argue or anything. I'm just saying. I have yet to see reliable info that says its' "true" 1080p. :)
It says "native" in the first paragraph of the link I gave you.
Another link (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/hdtv.htm)
Try searching for Virtua Tennis 3 or Street Home Court, the first two NATIVE 1080p games for the 360. It can upscale, but it also supports NATIVE 1080p and has done for YEARS. I can't believe one person could be so misinformed :p
EDIT: Another link (http://www.makeyougohmm.com/xbox360-1080p-games/) - list of native 1080p games, not updated since '07 though.
EDIT 2: On topic: I agree with grape :p
DEDDOA
11-02-2009, 06:55 PM
THE 360 CAN'T DO TRUE 1080P. PERIOD. It can upscale, but it CAN'T do 1080p.
I assume you are intentionally appearing to be clueless as anyone with a clue would know the 360 can upscale games to 1080p in hardware (unlike the half and half vertical only stretch that the PS3 does, but can do it via the options menu unlike the PS3 that needs it added by the devs last time i checked), and it can output in 1920x1080 native. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a console with more video ram can handle the same resolutions as a console with less video ram. Besides the 360 has about as many 1080p games as the PS3 both mainly being DLC games with very very few being actual retail games.
I assume you are intentionally appearing to be clueless as anyone with a clue would know the 360 can upscale games to 1080p in hardware (unlike the half and half vertical only stretch that the PS3 does, but can do it via the options menu unlike the PS3 that needs it added by the devs last time i checked), and it can output in 1920x1080 native. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a console with more video ram can handle the same resolutions as a console with less video ram. Besides the 360 has about as many 1080p games as the PS3 both mainly being DLC games with very very few being actual retail games.
wow alot of confused arguing here. ease up on the guy, he didn't come across as intentionally clueless to me just somebody who didn't know. I think he knows that the 360 can upscale and said it a few times already he was talking about native resolution the fact that Danasbo posted an article talking about the upscaling feature in the OS update didn't help. an OS update can't change a games native resolution btw.
nevertheless Danasbo is right it can support a native 1080p resolution, if the game is designed to.
I wouldn't agree with what you said at the end though the PS3 has more native 1080p games. from the link danasbo posted and it's been posted several times on these threads already since we often get flamewars here.
you have 26 PS3 games in native 1080p and only 6 360 games
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/ps3-1080p-games/
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/xbox360-1080p-games/
the thing with the 360 is that its advantage actually becomes a bit of a disadvantage at 1080p. the 360s EDRAM is not big enough for a 1080p resolution so you end up having to use "resolves" (copy edram to the much slower system memory) for tile based rendering and that really hits the performance badly.
Trashcat
11-02-2009, 11:51 PM
THE 360 CAN'T DO TRUE 1080P. PERIOD. It can upscale, but it CAN'T do 1080p.
Question1: whats your source for this information.
Question2: when did you have a proctologist examine your source of information for the last time?
Trashcat
11-02-2009, 11:59 PM
the thing with the 360 is that its advantage actually becomes a bit of a disadvantage at 1080p. the 360s EDRAM is not big enough for a 1080p resolution so you end up having to use "resolves" (copy edram to the much slower system memory) for tile based rendering and that really hits the performance badly.
Now I would really like a source for that.
grapeape
11-03-2009, 12:57 AM
wow alot of confused arguing here. ease up on the guy, he didn't come across as intentionally clueless to me just somebody who didn't know. I think he knows that the 360 can upscale and said it a few times already he was talking about native resolution the fact that Danasbo posted an article talking about the upscaling feature in the OS update didn't help. an OS update can't change a games native resolution btw.
nevertheless Danasbo is right it can support a native 1080p resolution, if the game is designed to.
I wouldn't agree with what you said at the end though the PS3 has more native 1080p games. from the link danasbo posted and it's been posted several times on these threads already since we often get flamewars here.
you have 26 PS3 games in native 1080p and only 6 360 games
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/ps3-1080p-games/
http://www.makeyougohmm.com/xbox360-1080p-games/
the thing with the 360 is that its advantage actually becomes a bit of a disadvantage at 1080p. the 360s EDRAM is not big enough for a 1080p resolution so you end up having to use "resolves" (copy edram to the much slower system memory) for tile based rendering and that really hits the performance badly.
I dont know if I would put much trust in that list though...Sony may not list their own games as 1080p we assume because they didnt on Warhawk...but considering how many of the games listed are the same 3rd party tiles on both lists and they point out that none of the games listed on either are 3rd party verified its safer to assume the lists are crap than to assume its fact.
Question1: whats your source for this information.
Question2: when did you have a proctologist examine your source of information for the last time?
OK I think he got the idea. do you read the thread at all? wasted danasbos time in the process by asking for sources though now you are doing the same.
Now I would really like a source for that.
is this out of genuine interest or are you just debating it because you are not happy about what I said? For now I will assume it's the former but if it's the latter, you have the internet, please use it; I hear google is good.
read the section about Multiple Render Targets. 10Mb EDRAM is your render target on the 360:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb203938(XNAGameStudio.10).aspx
here is it being small so you have to use tiled rendering:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb464139.aspx
with 1080p you would have to render 2.25 as much and therefore need a lot more EDRAM, therefore more tiles, and therefore more resolves. here is a small introduction to resolves, pay particular attention to the "take home message" slide about more resolves and the associated performance cost:
http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/gdc2008_ribble_maurice_TileBasedGpus.pdf
I dont know if I would put much trust in that list though...Sony may not list their own games as 1080p we assume because they didnt on Warhawk...but considering how many of the games listed are the same 3rd party tiles on both lists and they point out that none of the games listed on either are 3rd party verified its safer to assume the lists are crap than to assume its fact.
Then we would also have to assume danasbo didn't provide legitimate proof that some 360 games are native 1080p. In a way you're right it's just some stupid list and there really is no way of knowing the legitimacy of the source.
One thing I would say though is the games that appear on both lists are 1080p on both consoles so I don't know what you mean by that. there may or may not be some mistakes, I don't know, but games that I know to be 1080p from other sources appear on that list and none that I know to be less.
waldog
11-03-2009, 06:31 AM
Question1: whats your source for this information.
Question2: when did you have a proctologist examine your source of information for the last time?
Mostly google. And some sites like gamespot and other gaming forums. Most said it was simulated 1080p and not true. I guess if I didn't manufacture the console and had nothing to due with it's creation, I would say the most reliable information I could go on is the info that's posted the most by gamers.
I said earlier that I could be wrong and that's why I asked for proof. But the sites posted could be false too. You never know with the internet. As of this point, I would say i'm not sure if it's true or not. As I will assume all internet info is fake from here on out and only go by what's posted here on maxconsole - my #1 resource for all things gaming. Where people flame, argue and bash until they agree on info that nobody 100% truly knows. :cool:
Thanks Cue for the understanding. :)
DanASBO
11-03-2009, 10:15 AM
"snip"
No. You're wrong. The 360 can do native 1080p.
There's no need for a massive discussion on 360 vs PS3 1080p as this wasn't even mentioned.
I said earlier that I could be wrong and that's why I asked for proof. But the sites posted could be false too. You never know with the internet. As of this point, I would say i'm not sure if it's true or not.
There is no reason to live in doubt, it's true, it can do it. there is no reason why it can't it just requires more tricks to overcome the EDRAM size and keep the performance so there are fewer 360 games that do 1080p (this may be what you read on the internet, people misunderstanding the EDRAM "limit") but it can be done and there are some 1080p games right now which prove so.
There's no need for a massive discussion on 360 vs PS3 1080p as this wasn't even mentioned.
if only more people (namely trashcat) thought like you.
DEDDOA
11-04-2009, 08:35 PM
Considering the majority of 1080p games are on PSN and XBL, and they aren't listed there those lists are a fair bit off, anyway both can do 1080p but neither can do it without cutbacks. But as mentioned that isn't the subject, it is merely an additonal to the fact that 60fps isn't a big deal, and this gen neither is 1080p, both consoles have games that do either or both, none are as impressive as the 720p 30fps so neither are more thana gimic or somthing for the PSN?XBL games.
Considering the majority of 1080p games are on PSN and XBL, and they aren't listed there those lists are a fair bit off, anyway both can do 1080p but neither can do it without cutbacks. But as mentioned that isn't the subject, it is merely an additonal to the fact that 60fps isn't a big deal, and this gen neither is 1080p, both consoles have games that do either or both, none are as impressive as the 720p 30fps so neither are more thana gimic or somthing for the PSN?XBL games.
I was replying to your post about video ram and telling you that's not the case. the PS3 has its whole 256Mb VRAM as its render target while 360 has its 10Mb EDRAM and you have to use a tiled rendering workaround to get 1080p at a further performance cost. The lists have not been updated, they're not off you can make 1080p games on the PS3 easier than you can on the 360 of course there are cutbacks for both but you need to use resolves on the 360 because of its limited EDRAM.
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